Famicom 8 Bit Music Power

Started by Yodd, February 04, 2016, 06:58:58 am

Previous topic - Next topic

Arasoi

Just as an update to correct my previous misinformation - the cart is standard mmc3 mapper 4, nothing special. However it cannot be dumped with a kazzo/INL pcb, for currently unknown reasons, and this caused the confusion. Tapedump or dumping the PRG/CHR from the actual chips will work for anyone wanting to put a copy on a flashcart for personal use.

UglyJoe

February 24, 2016, 02:43:49 pm #31 Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 08:09:50 pm by UglyJoe
Mine finally arrived from AmiAmi today.  Boots to a white/gray screen on my unmodded RF Famicom.  Wonderful.

Edit: But it works in my "Super Joy III" clone.  Glorious.


fcgamer

I'm honestly not sure why there are so much negative discussion about the build quality and compatibility of this cart.  Although the "game" isn't particularly to my style I bought it because of what it was, namely a CIB Famicom release from the year 2016.  To top it off, I didn't even need to order it from some "sketchy" website or from an online auction, like how many of the NES homebrew releases are distributed nowadays.

Regarding compatibility, I see it in this way:  The Famicom's "hardware" has "changed" from its initial release in 1983 until now.  We can try to argue otherwise, choosing to ignore the subtle differences from the original Famicom that produced to the Famiclones being distributed today, but I find it silly to do so.  Calling a spade a spade, I see it like this:  an unlicensed game will run on unlicensed hardware, yet it won't run on official hardware.  Oh the horrors!  We saw the same thing stateside back during the 90s, with unlicensed NES games not running on legit NES machines.  So there are some compatibility issues, but...but...you are trying to use unofficial software on official hardware, doesn't sound like that big of a deal to me. 

Famicoms and Famiclones are both cheap enough these days and easy enough to obtain that I feel as though Famicom enthusiasts should have one of each in their possession.  There are good games on both sides of the spectrum, licensed and unofficial, which won't run on hardware from the other side.  All problems solved.

I just hope that all of this negativity and the complaints don't discourage more projects like this from happening in the future   :'(
Family Bits - Check Progress Below!

https://famicomfamilybits.wordpress.com

UglyJoe

Yeah, but, unlike pirate releases, the music was the entire point here instead of simply an afterthought.  The last thing I trust clone systems to get right is the sound reproduction.

I get your point, though.  It just stings a bit given the price point of this release.

mfm

Quote from: fcgamer on February 24, 2016, 08:19:23 pm
I'm honestly not sure why there are so much negative discussion about the build quality and compatibility of this cart.  Although the "game" isn't particularly to my style I bought it because of what it was, namely a CIB Famicom release from the year 2016.  To top it off, I didn't even need to order it from some "sketchy" website or from an online auction, like how many of the NES homebrew releases are distributed nowadays.

Regarding compatibility, I see it in this way:  The Famicom's "hardware" has "changed" from its initial release in 1983 until now.  We can try to argue otherwise, choosing to ignore the subtle differences from the original Famicom that produced to the Famiclones being distributed today, but I find it silly to do so.  Calling a spade a spade, I see it like this:  an unlicensed game will run on unlicensed hardware, yet it won't run on official hardware.  Oh the horrors!  We saw the same thing stateside back during the 90s, with unlicensed NES games not running on legit NES machines.  So there are some compatibility issues, but...but...you are trying to use unofficial software on official hardware, doesn't sound like that big of a deal to me. 

Famicoms and Famiclones are both cheap enough these days and easy enough to obtain that I feel as though Famicom enthusiasts should have one of each in their possession.  There are good games on both sides of the spectrum, licensed and unofficial, which won't run on hardware from the other side.  All problems solved.

I just hope that all of this negativity and the complaints don't discourage more projects like this from happening in the future   :'(


If the quality was so bad that it actually broke an original Famicom then it deserves criticism. I've had better quality carts made and shipped for ~$3 including registered airmail shipping (and much better quality for a few dollars more). On play-asia.com we can also read that "after an hour, the cartridges would get hot and shut off. They need to rest for a few minutes before further use". It's not OK!

Of course 2016 Famicom CIB releases are very nice, but if they don't work on original Famicoms (or even break original Famicoms) then don't bother! Then they can sell the ROM file on some webpage instead and leave the cartridge creation to someone else than the dodgiest and cheapest factory in all of China.

Alternatively we can treat it as some emulator thing for emulator people that is not relevant for Famicom enthusiasts, but is that really what the actual artists prefer? (Columbus Circle seems to be in the business of selling clone system from China so they probably don't care about real hardware)

chowder

Quote from: fcgamer on February 24, 2016, 08:19:23 pm
I'm honestly not sure why there are so much negative discussion about the build quality and compatibility of this cart.


Because the build quality is below that of $5 pirates and it doesn't work (or outright breaks) some peoples' consoles?

fcgamer

Quote from: chowder on February 25, 2016, 12:01:39 am
Quote from: fcgamer on February 24, 2016, 08:19:23 pm
I'm honestly not sure why there are so much negative discussion about the build quality and compatibility of this cart.


Because the build quality is below that of $5 pirates and it doesn't work (or outright breaks) some peoples' consoles?



The build quality on the modern pirates is shit, I hate all of that Aliexpress-quality stuff.  Those carts are just garbage imo.

This one, the case is not nearly as brittle, etc, and is of a much better quality (imo) than a lot of stuff I've seen in recent years.

Regarding breaking machines or not, I always find claims like that to be a bit dubious and would like to know exactly what happened there.  With evidence and stuff like that.  Could be that the machine was faulty to begin with, we don't know.

The following was mentioned:

QuoteOf course 2016 Famicom CIB releases are very nice, but if they don't work on original Famicoms (or even break original Famicoms) then don't bother! Then they can sell the ROM file on some webpage instead and leave the cartridge creation to someone else than the dodgiest and cheapest factory in all of China.

Alternatively we can treat it as some emulator thing for emulator people that is not relevant for Famicom enthusiasts, but is that really what the actual artists prefer? (Columbus Circle seems to be in the business of selling clone system from China so they probably don't care about real hardware)


Why does it even matter if it works on original hardware or not?  Even with the original machine, there were so many different revisions, why is it even necessary (is it even possible) to guarantee compatibility with all of them?  It just seems a bit nit picky to me, and a bit hypocritical as well.  I am sure that if we asked everyone here who plays on a clone and who uses real hardware and why, the vast majority would choose real hardware for all sorts of reasons, such as quality, sound, picture, legality, moral issues, purist reasons, etc.  Yet then the software being used is unlicensed.  Just something that is a bit funny to me.

I personally would rather see (and support) releases like this and have "official" releases, rather than releases like Blade Buster where the only way to get one for the collection is to make it by hand or pay someone to do so, and then print off a label, leaving everything feeling even less legit / collectible than factory made pirate carts. 

I think the product has a quite small selling demographic anyways, so most of the people buying this would be collectors.  And I think this product fills the needs of collectors.
Family Bits - Check Progress Below!

https://famicomfamilybits.wordpress.com

L___E___T

 


I do think if the game has build and compatibility issues, that is very poor.  Absolutely I would support this if those issues weren't there.  I had planned to get two actually, but forgot to place an order, now after reading these complaints I won't buy one at all.  It really should work on real hardware, revisions included.  Every other game out there managed this, it's not a new thing.

I think the compatibility issues stem from copy protection on the cart maybe?
My for Sale / Trade thread
http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=9423.msg133828#msg133828
大事なのは、オチに至るまでの積み重ねなのです。

muckyfingers

Quote from: L___E___T on February 25, 2016, 03:16:24 am
I think the compatibility issues stem from copy protection on the cart maybe?


No, the compatibility issue is the 3.3v flash chips used on a 5v system then compounded on a pirate board with a pirate MMC3 clone mapper chip. It's just not stable on Famicom systems across the board.

The good news is, you can replace the 3.3v chips with 5v tolerant versions(Micron M29F160F). The problem for most would be removing/dumping the 48 pin TSOP chips, programming the new 48 pin TSOP chips and then soldering onto the board. I plan to do this to mine, or possibly just make myself a repro with Eproms and shove it in the case since I have Eproms and a donor cart already.

UglyJoe


muckyfingers

Quote from: UglyJoe on February 25, 2016, 05:05:19 am
You could also do this mod: https://twitter.com/taivatri/status/694169232393658368


I'd rather have the proper 5v chips so I don't risk them burning out and possibly causing other problems.

mfm

Quote from: fcgamer on February 25, 2016, 02:30:44 am

The build quality on the modern pirates is shit, I hate all of that Aliexpress-quality stuff.  Those carts are just garbage imo.

This one, the case is not nearly as brittle, etc, and is of a much better quality (imo) than a lot of stuff I've seen in recent years.

Regarding breaking machines or not, I always find claims like that to be a bit dubious and would like to know exactly what happened there.  With evidence and stuff like that.  Could be that the machine was faulty to begin with, we don't know.

The following was mentioned:

Why does it even matter if it works on original hardware or not?  Even with the original machine, there were so many different revisions, why is it even necessary (is it even possible) to guarantee compatibility with all of them?  It just seems a bit nit picky to me, and a bit hypocritical as well.  I am sure that if we asked everyone here who plays on a clone and who uses real hardware and why, the vast majority would choose real hardware for all sorts of reasons, such as quality, sound, picture, legality, moral issues, purist reasons, etc.  Yet then the software being used is unlicensed.  Just something that is a bit funny to me.

I personally would rather see (and support) releases like this and have "official" releases, rather than releases like Blade Buster where the only way to get one for the collection is to make it by hand or pay someone to do so, and then print off a label, leaving everything feeling even less legit / collectible than factory made pirate carts. 

I think the product has a quite small selling demographic anyways, so most of the people buying this would be collectors.  And I think this product fills the needs of collectors.


Funny that you call aliexpress-stuff just garbage because the quality of this cartridge is even worse than the regular cheap aliexpress-stuff. The case doesn't matter unless you throw it on the ground and there are better Chinese pirate cases if you pay a little more.

It's not too much to ask that they try it on some real hardware especially since they are located in Japan and have easy access to different hardware. Obviously the usual pirate stuff works better than this and they don't try especially hard.

Any why it does matter that it works on real hardware? Because if it doesn't work on Famicoms then it's not a Famicom game! Simple as that. Also funny that the first review I find of a Columbus Circle Famicom clone complains that the sound of the games doesn't sound right(!!).  I just think that Columbus Circle is totally the wrong publisher for this kind of thing.

For Blade Buster I can buy a copy from China that is much better quality than the 8 bit music power cartridge(and actually works on real Famicoms). I think it's good that many authors don't want their work to be limited by artificial "limited editions" or such crap but that everyone who wants to produce cartridges of their work can do it. Especially easy for Blade Buster since it includes label graphics.

If you by collectors mean people that buy overpriced stuff in the hope that it will be even more overpriced in the future and just put it away without using it or opening then i'm sure this works for them, but I don't see this as anything positive. Not for us as Famicom enthusiasts or for the actual composers of these tracks anyway.

famifan

Quote from: L___E___T on February 25, 2016, 03:16:24 am
I do think if the game has build and compatibility issues, that is very poor.  Absolutely I would support this if those issues weren't there.  I had planned to get two actually, but forgot to place an order, now after reading these complaints I won't buy one at all.  It really should work on real hardware, revisions included.


my bet: it wasn't tested against real h/w. let's face it, devs' were unable to test it against various revisions of famicom, twin, etc. The actual reasons are unknown. Was it intentional? idk.

if it got tested well, then it will be sporting a mentioning about that somewhere in description. "Tested on real h/w. Guarantee to work on any authentic famicom and twin, etc". Are you ready for paying say $99 for this kind of guarantee?

otherwise, you don't have a right to claim about compatibility issues as the compatibility wasn't guaranteed by all means :)

I was disappointed for missing the orders too, but right now, i'm pretty happy that didn't buy it.

Ghegs

Sadly, the cart's box itself has a warning that it may not work with all systems. The Amazon page description even goes further and lists off a few Famiclones from Columbus Circle themselves (same guys who produced/manufactured this) that it will definitely work on.

L___E___T

Wow, I didn't see that.  I can still complain though, it shouldn't even be an issue, small print or no.
My for Sale / Trade thread
http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=9423.msg133828#msg133828
大事なのは、オチに至るまでの積み重ねなのです。