nes/famicom printer project, Family Keyboard alternatives?

Started by prince tomato, February 14, 2017, 10:02:04 am

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prince tomato

so, i finally have a little time to spare,
and started looking into adding a printer/parallel port to the original FC/NES, and reverse engineered the circuitry found in Subor keyboard famiclones,
(which are notably different from the one 133Mhz used in his project here https://www.google.nl/amp/s/133fsb.wordpress.com/2010/03/21/famicom-compatible-printer-port-interface/amp/)

so, that's done, waiting for the chips i ordered but i am confident this could be implemented on standard Famicom consoles and one of those educational carts with a text editor.
the final build will be a standalone cartridge with the texteditor and printerport built in.

but, i would like to build a version for the nes as well,
the famicom family basic keyboard can be connected to the NES with the Enio board,
but the family basic keyboard is pretty expensive.
so my question is, has anyone ever looked into an alternative for the keyboard?
something that can be hacked/modified to work with the famicom expansionslot on the Enio board and allow for text input for instance?
i have a Subor keyboard that can plug into a regular Famicom,
but those are probably harder to find than the real thing.
any hints or suggestions are more than welcome.

P

It would be nice if someone made a PS/2-adapter for the Famicom keyboard so that you could just get a cheap IBM-PC keyboard. It could probably be built using a microcontroller that handles the conversion, though I have almost no idea how a PS/2 keyboard works.

Though I think the keyboard is made entirely using off-the-shelf parts, save for the proprietary connector plug (but that can be sourced from Neo Geo extension cables), so it should be entirely possible to build a Family Basic controller PCB yourself, including the data recorder part I think. So the easier way might be to take a cheap PS/2 keyboard for IBM-PC, throw out the controller PCB and replace it with a Family Keyboard one, mapping the keyboard matrix appropriately.

One problem is that an IBM-PC keyboard's layout is a bit different, although it has more than enough keys.

Some good resources:
https://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/Family_BASIC_Keyboard
http://www43.tok2.com/home/cmpslv/Famic/Fambas.htm

prince tomato

February 14, 2017, 02:45:56 pm #2 Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 05:48:18 pm by prince tomato
Quote from: P on February 14, 2017, 02:34:50 pm
It would be nice if someone made a PS/2-adapter for the Famicom keyboard so that you could just get a cheap IBM-PC keyboard. It could probably be built using a microcontroller that handles the conversion, though I have almost no idea how a PS/2 keyboard works.

Though I think the keyboard is made entierly using off-the-shelf parts, save for the propertiary connector plug (but that can be sourced from Neo Geo extension cables), so it should be entierly possible to build a Family Basic controller PCB yourself, including the data recorder part I think. So the easier way might be to take a cheap PS/2 keyboard for IBM-PC, throw out the controller PCB and replace it with a Family Keyboard one, mapping the keyboard matrix appropiatly.

One problem is that an IBM-PC keyboard's layout is a bit different, although it has more than enough keys.

Some good resources:
https://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/Family_BASIC_Keyboard
http://www43.tok2.com/home/cmpslv/Famic/Fambas.htm


well, that would be the best solution indeed,
although it seems that in russia someone has tackled this problem as well, even adding data i/o lines to it,
check it out!
http://www.nedopc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10219


Post Merge: February 14, 2017, 05:48:18 pm

also, (just re-read all of this)
anything involving the use of Family Keyboard parts would deafeat the purpose a bit, because you would still need the original Family Keyboard.
what i like about this Russian Keyboard Transformer is the fact that it uses a standard DIN-5 keyboard connector (AT?),
and integrates the data lines in a very neat little package not much bigger that a Famicom cart.
this would eliminate the necessity of the Enio board as keyboard interface connection when used in an NES,
and makes life easier overall for both FC and NES version because you can use old keyboards that are easier to find.
the chips and parts to make the Russian Keyboard transformer are on their way, so i can get started in a week or 2,
so now i am on the hunt for someone to flash the CHR and PRG chips for me.
this could be a very interesting build.

P

Ah the Keyboard Transformer. I've seen that one before.

Quote from: prince tomato on February 14, 2017, 02:45:56 pm
anything involving the use of Family Keyboard parts would deafeat the purpose a bit, because you would still need the original Family Keyboard.

If the Famicom keyboard is using only off-the-shelf-parts, like I think it does, you can buy all the stuff in an electronic parts store and build it yourself. You don't need to canibalize a real Family Keyboard. According to Enri's schematics and the Nesdev wiki:
Quote from: https://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/Family_BASIC_Keyboard#HardwareHardware
The Family BASIC Keyboard is implemented using a CD4017 decade counter (to scan the rows of the keyboard matrix), a CD4019 quad AND-OR gate, and one sixth of a CD4069 hex inverter. The latter two are combined to make a quad 1-of-2 selector, equivalent to a CD4519 or a 74'157. (Another three inverters are used to interface to the Family BASIC Data Recorder)
These are all normal logic ICs that you can buy in stores. I don't know if it's simple to use an IBM-PC matrix with this though.

Quotewhat i like about this Russian Keyboard Transformer is the fact that it uses a standard DIN-5 keyboard connector (AT?),
and integrates the data lines in a very neat little package not much bigger that a Famicom cart.
this would eliminate the necessity of the Enio board as keyboard interface connection when used in an NES,
and makes life easier overall for both FC and NES version because you can use old keyboards that are easier to find.

But this doesn't solve the same problem. If I understand this correctly, this makes the keyboard only work with the custom Family Basic that this person made, or any software that you write for this particular setup. You won't be able to use the keyboard for existing software like the real Family Basic, Excitebike etc.

80sFREAK

Quote from: prince tomato on February 14, 2017, 10:02:04 am
but the family basic keyboard is pretty expensive.
WHAT?!  :crazy:

Ok, so you wish to have some sort of keyboard, text editor or so and LPT port(do you have any printers with LPT?) on canonical NES?

"That russian thing" suggested above, designed for XT keyboard, not AT. Cart is big and complicated. For LPT you have to add at least two chips '138 and '273.

Not enough information for more suggestions. If prince tomato wish to discuss some detales in PM, you are very welocme

P, not the big deal to use different matrix, just rewrite keyboard driver(subroutine to be exact), which was done in Subor keyboard clones and "that russian thing". Use custom logic to scan matrix or MCU.
I don't buy, sell or trade at moment.
But my question is how hackers at that time were able to hack those games?(c)krzy

FAMICOM_87

prince tomato, I was planing to do the slimier project like yours :)
BTW years ago I bought a famiclone keybard with LPT port and see my surprise:  :crazy: :gamer: :o
Even the Parallel port was a dummy!  ;D :crazy:


prince tomato

February 27, 2017, 01:41:23 pm #6 Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 01:46:55 pm by prince tomato


Quote from: 80sFREAK on February 15, 2017, 02:23:11 am
Quote from: prince tomato on February 14, 2017, 10:02:04 am
but the family basic keyboard is pretty expensive.
WHAT?!  :crazy:

Ok, so you wish to have some sort of keyboard, text editor or so and LPT port(do you have any printers with LPT?) on canonical NES?

"i have a dot matrix printer, and some keyboard clones with the lpt port.
i already have the chips needed to make the Subor equivalent of the printerport, (details vary a little between different keyboards)"

"That russian thing" suggested above, designed for XT keyboard, not AT. Cart is big and complicated. For LPT you have to add at least two chips '138 and '273.

"got similar stuff, ready to go.
the thing is, the Keyboard Transformer rom has no Text Editor application or anything like a "print" command to send to the printer.
those applications only exist on cartridges supplied with keyboard famiclones.
so one project will aim to make regular Famicoms work with keyboard famiclone carts and dot matrix printers.
and the other will be an attempt to make the Keyboard Transformer and see how that goes."

"it would be nice if a rom with a suitable Text Editor program could be made to work with the Keyboard Transformer,
then adding the LPT port would make sense.
but for now, these will be two seperate projects".


Not enough information for more suggestions. If prince tomato wish to discuss some detales in PM, you are very welocme

P, not the big deal to use different matrix, just rewrite keyboard driver(subroutine to be exact), which was done in Subor keyboard clones and "that russian thing". Use custom logic to scan matrix or MCU.


Post Merge: February 27, 2017, 01:44:49 pm

Quote from: FAMICOM_87 on February 27, 2017, 01:26:27 pm
prince tomato, I was planing to do the slimier project like yours :)
BTW years ago I bought a famiclone keybard with LPT port and see my surprise:  :crazy: :gamer: :o
Even the Parallel port was a dummy!  ;D :crazy:




the lpt port was there, but it wasn't connected???
that's crazy.
can you still hook it up though?
is it only missing a ribboncable?

FAMICOM_87

I did exactly that and it worked :)  :star: 8)
And yes it is crazy! I even removed the dummy port and replace it  ;D


prince tomato


FAMICOM_87

I am planing to do video, but no I am so lazy. to show you my HP LaserJet 4L printing from this think :D

prince tomato

laserjet printers work as well???
for some reason i thought only dot matrix printers did  :o
how can you identify which printer will work?
will every printer from a certain brand/type/era with an lpt connector work?

FAMICOM_87

Quote from: prince tomato on February 27, 2017, 01:59:54 pm
laserjet printers work as well???
for some reason i thought only dot matrix printers did  :o
how can you identify which printer will work?
will every printer from a certain brand/type/era with an lpt connector work?


to my great surprise Yes :) it does . it can print from pure DOS as well , just like from my dot matrix printers :)
it can print by pressing "print screen" key just  under DOS or BIOS SETUP :)
or from any text editor program under DOS :)
My be only old models with LPT or serial ports can do that , this particular HL 4L model is from 1993 .
A friend of mine have a newer model from 1997 also HP laserjet with LPT an RJ45 but it can not print from DOS :(
I have one Lexmark 3200 LPT color ink printer too and it can not print under DOS too , it have drivers from windows 3.11 and above. also from 1997

prince tomato

so,
finally got all necessary chips, or suitable equivalents,
and started assembling,





i only need to buy some 11k resistors,
and identify the correct capacitor values to finish up and start wiring it all up.
the capacitors are ceramic, so i'm guessing they are measured in picofarad, not microfarad, but i've never used them before, so i am not 100% sure.
if anyone can enlighten me that would be great.
check out the pics and schematics of the original here:
http://www.nedopc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10219

fcgamer

This is great stuff, I will write you about it more later.
Family Bits - Check Progress Below!

https://famicomfamilybits.wordpress.com

P

Quote from: prince tomato on February 28, 2017, 06:17:55 pm

and identify the correct capacitor values to finish up and start wiring it all up.
the capacitors are ceramic, so i'm guessing they are measured in picofarad, not microfarad, but i've never used them before, so i am not 100% sure.

I'm clueless too, usually they write out the prefix at least. But I guess since it's ceramic it can't be micro and the exact values might not even be that important. But I don't really know.


Quote from: 80sFREAK on February 15, 2017, 02:23:11 am
Quote from: prince tomato on February 14, 2017, 10:02:04 am
but the family basic keyboard is pretty expensive.
WHAT?!  :crazy:

Ok, so you wish to have some sort of keyboard, text editor or so and LPT port(do you have any printers with LPT?) on canonical NES?

"That russian thing" suggested above, designed for XT keyboard, not AT. Cart is big and complicated. For LPT you have to add at least two chips '138 and '273.

Not enough information for more suggestions. If prince tomato wish to discuss some detales in PM, you are very welocme

P, not the big deal to use different matrix, just rewrite keyboard driver(subroutine to be exact), which was done in Subor keyboard clones and "that russian thing". Use custom logic to scan matrix or MCU.

But that doesn't solve problem either.
There are some Family keyboard sellers on ebay that are trying to trick people into overpaying a keyboard since they don't show up everyday outside Japan. I guess this artificially raises the price. But in auctions they are generally quite cheap.

Anyone looking for a keyboard just needs patient and look often and you will get one cheap eventually.