Rules regarding selling so-called "repros"

Started by fcgamer, October 04, 2015, 09:56:49 am

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fcgamer

Quote from: 80sFREAK on October 05, 2015, 07:59:56 am
Sorry, fcgamer, i have no issues with you, so, please, keep your walls of text.

I'm very pleased by your "flood the market" and, yes, right now i making a new slice of history.


Okay, no walls of text, but one quick answer to one simple question, please:

You will write "reproduction" on your carts, right?

Also, do you own the rights to this IP, for the software you copy/steal?
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MaxXimus

Does anyone who sells a bootleg own the IP to the game for which they stole?

fcgamer

Quote from: SumixXam on October 05, 2015, 11:15:14 am
Does anyone who sells a bootleg own the IP to the game for which they stole?


Mitch, games like Pyramid 2, Huang Di, etc are NOT bootlegs...they are original games, not stolen from anyone.  It is the same as saying Tengen's Tetris or Road Runner or something on NES is a bootleg, just because it was made by Tengen...
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MaxXimus

I'm not referring to unlicensed originals. I'm referring to all the bootlegs being sold on our forums, your thread included. I'm really not trying to stir things up here but let's be honest. It doesn't matter when a bootleg was released. It still infringes on the IP of the creators and as such would go against one of your arguments about whether a game should be allowed to be sold.

The point I'm making is that this topic goes beyond personal interest which I am sorry to say seems to be the case here.

Ghegs

Strictly speaking...

Dictionary.com

something, as a recording, made, reproduced, or sold illegally or without authorization:

Merriam-Webster

to produce, reproduce, or distribute illicitly or without authorization

Both Huang Di and Tengen's Tetris were sold without authorization from Nintendo, so they fill the criteria.

fcgamer

October 05, 2015, 12:02:53 pm #20 Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 12:09:35 pm by fcgamer
Quote from: SumixXam on October 05, 2015, 11:55:11 am
I'm not referring to unlicensed originals. I'm referring to all the bootlegs being sold on our forums, your thread included. I'm really not trying to stir things up here but let's be honest. It doesn't matter when a bootleg was released. It still infringes on the IP of the creators and as such would go against one of your arguments about whether a game should be allowed to be sold.

The point I'm making is that this topic goes beyond personal interest which I am sorry to say seems to be the case here.


Mitch, if we stop allowing selling ALL bootleg games, then I will remove my wares, no problem...honestly, it is no problem to me, I couldn't care less about it...



Post Merge: October 05, 2015, 12:09:35 pm

I think you are misunderstanding, and the below definitions don't really say anything at all...

Those two below definitions are clearly about producing copies of software, books, dvds, etc without legal rights.

For an original work though, nothing illegal there, and it had been proved again and again in court during the life of the NES in the USA...if you want to challenge the matter further, Ghegs, I ask you:  Is Videomation licensed or unlicensed (bootleg?)

Quote from: Ghegs on October 05, 2015, 12:00:23 pm
Strictly speaking...

Dictionary.com

something, as a recording, made, reproduced, or sold illegally or without authorization:

Merriam-Webster

to produce, reproduce, or distribute illicitly or without authorization

Both Huang Di and Tengen's Tetris were sold without authorization from Nintendo, so they fill the criteria.
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MaxXimus

Dave. The thing is, I have no issue with your sale thread and I truly don't think anyone else does either. What I do have an issue with is this back and forth squabble that's been happening over the past couple weeks. It's been progressing quite quickly lately and its sort of the attitude that we are trying to avoid (and that which NA is known for)

hvc01

I don't believe the market will be flooded with reproductions fcgamer despite 80sFREAK 's best efforts and intentions. ☺
That said I don't see any harm with a reproduction  marker somewhere on the reproduction to help out those collecting originals, whether pirates, fakes, bootlegs, reproductions, unlicensed or licensed. Stick disk-kun on it or something, he's been waiting for an opportunity ☺

fcgamer

October 05, 2015, 06:16:03 pm #23 Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 06:32:58 pm by fcgamer
Quote from: hvc01 on October 05, 2015, 01:19:57 pm
I don't believe the market will be flooded with reproductions fcgamer despite 80sFREAK 's best efforts and intentions. ☺
That said I don't see any harm with a reproduction  marker somewhere on the reproduction to help out those collecting originals, whether pirates, fakes, bootlegs, reproductions, unlicensed or licensed. Stick disk-kun on it or something, he's been waiting for an opportunity ☺


In reality, that's all I am asking for, something that 80sFREAK had brought up and demanded himself when the Nolan brothers were set to make "repro" of an unreleased game.  And in the Nolans' case, I honestly feel there was a lot more value in the project, since it wasn't something that someone could go out and buy, since there was no "original" version, so to speak, aside from one or two beta copies.  But every time I asked 80sFREAK about whether he was marking carts or not, it was met with silence.

Post Merge: October 05, 2015, 06:32:58 pm

Quote from: SumixXam on October 05, 2015, 12:50:37 pm
Dave. The thing is, I have no issue with your sale thread and I truly don't think anyone else does either. What I do have an issue with is this back and forth squabble that's been happening over the past couple weeks. It's been progressing quite quickly lately and its sort of the attitude that we are trying to avoid (and that which NA is known for)


@Mitch:  I've been around over at Nintendo Age for years.  Do you know why Nintendo Age has such problems, such issues?  There is a huge divide between collectors, profiteers (resellers), and gamers there.  No one respects the other groups of people coexisting, which in the end divides the community and promotes the sniping.

For me to be willing to remove truly infringing items from my sales thread in the name of keeping the integrity involving the Famicom collecting scene says a lot about my dedication to the community as a whole, etc. 

If 80sFREAK puts reproduction on his carts, I'll let the issue go.  But to start making and selling bootleg copies of legal (but unlicensed) games, in a manner where they can be easily confused with the originals, then I will keep fighting the fight, period.

Most of the people here don't collect unlicensed games, so of course the effort to get a cheap copy is more appealing than paying $40 or $50 for an original, and waiting two years until you can find one; but the thing you and others are forgetting, is you are talking with someone that has tracked down 320 or 340 or whatever of the approximately 400 unlicensed games out there on Famicom.  So this is a situation / problem concerning collectors.
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80sFREAK

October 05, 2015, 09:52:43 pm #24 Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 10:12:51 pm by 80sFREAK
What is the difference between repro of "unreleased prototype"(it's quite easy to make one, by creating story behind and hardware), unlicensed "originals" and "translations"?

Chegs, you forgot that Pyramid is rip-off of Columns.

Those, who saying, that Tengen Tetris is "original" should read page on wiki  ;D It is no more original than endless hacks of Mario.

fcgamer, i have nothing to discuss with you, until you figure out how "fast burning chips and solder couple wires" and read some basic wikipedia articles.
I don't buy, sell or trade at moment.
But my question is how hackers at that time were able to hack those games?(c)krzy

fcgamer

Quote from: 80sFREAK on October 05, 2015, 09:52:43 pm
What is the difference between repro of "unreleased prototype"(it's quite easy to make one, by creating story behind and hardware), unlicensed "originals" and "translations"?

Chegs, you forgot that Pyramid is rip-off of Columns.

Those, who saying, that Tengen Tetris is "original" should read page on wiki  ;D It is no more original than endless hacks of Mario.

fcgamer, i have nothing to discuss with you, until you figure out how "fast burning chips and solder couple wires" and read some basic wikipedia articles.


80sFREAK, good idea about the wiki article.  Let's read:

In an interview, Ed Logg notes that the Tengen version of Tetris was built completely from scratch, using no source code or material from the original game..  Yup, original.

Also, Columns would be like Magic Jewelry, not like Pyramid.  Let's compare:

(Columns)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmIucANqxaE

(Pyramid)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXaam_EeV5U

Totally different.  Obviously Pyramid is a Tetris-inspired game, with a twist, but the same could be said of all the other licensed Tetris-eque / inspired puzzle games of the time.

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Ghegs

Quote from: fcgamer on October 05, 2015, 12:02:53 pmI think you are misunderstanding, and the below definitions don't really say anything at all...

Those two below definitions are clearly about producing copies of software, books, dvds, etc without legal rights.


They say plenty, and they clearly talk about selling without authorization. Even the term itself originally comes from smuggling and selling alcohol to locations where it's forbidden by law, or to get around taxes.

I have no idea what Videomation is. Looks like a crappy drawing program?

fcgamer

^^^The significance of Videomation is it is one Nintendo / Famicom game that has a unique story behind it.  On Famicom, it was unlicensed, published by the same company that published Game Genie, the Codemasters games, etc on Famicom.  But on the Nintendo in the USA, it was a licensed product, picked up and published by a licensed Western company, whereas the other games (the Codemasters titles) remained unlicensed.

Throughout, 80sFREAK has been arguing off and on that it is okay to copy (i.e. steal) and repro unlicensed games, since they are just "bootlegs" / "pirates" / whatever you call it, irregardless on whether the games actually ARE pirates (i.e. they steal code and other things from other games), or are built independently without stolen IP (like Huang Di, for example).  But by the definition he defined elsewhere regarding unlicensed games = bootlegs / pirates, by equating these two as one, it means that Videomation has to be a pirate / bootleg as well, yet it was licensed by Nintendo in the west   :o  Now I don't know about you, but it simply doesn't make sense to me.
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jensma

So Videomation published unlicensed gamesin Japan  and licensed games in the west.

...what about it?

Ghegs

October 06, 2015, 03:28:58 am #29 Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 03:38:31 am by Ghegs
Yeah, seems pretty clear-cut to me. The NES version is legitimate, while the Famicom version is a bootleg (If we go by the strict definition of the word). There's plenty of games that were released on NES but never got an official Famicom release, yet pirate FC carts of them exist.

N.B. I do think marking carts with some kind of hint as to its origin, be it a logo or disclaimer or just changing the year, is just good practice (and advertisement). The question of "can you bootleg a bootleg" is a touch more philosophical in nature.