[NOTE: My original post here, and the replies that follow it were in response to a B/S/T thread with someone selling a bootleg Earthbound as a "rare repro." It has since been split into a new thread by an admin.]
Reproduction is probably too kind a word for a knockoff of a game that was already commercially released in this region. This is frankly just a bootleg. This is the crap that makes me pop open every expensive Nintendo game I buy with a security screwdriver to inspect the board for authenticity.
To be called a repro requires a little more merit that this deserves. It should be providing a gameplay experience that we wouldn't otherwise be able to enjoy. Unreleased prototypes, fan-translated Famicom RPGs, and hack sequels are worthy repros.
Real repros are also kind of an artistic expression. Even the more basic label designs are about combining advertising art for the game with the borders and color schemes commonly used by the likely publisher for the game to create a facsimile of what a US release would've looked like. Other repro makers get much more ambitious and use more elaborate fan art to create really dazzling labels.
I'm somewhat relieved that this label isn't exactly like an original Earthbound's, but it's also so extremely similar that it lacks creativity and it could easily be used to trick someone into thinking it's an original copy. I appreciate that you're not trying to pass it off as original, but there are also plenty of sleazy characters that would consider buying it off you and relisting it for $150 on Ebay as a legit copy.
It is, in the most literal sense, a reproduction.
There's nothing wrong with that for people who want to play - on real hardware - a $200 game they'll never be able to afford
Not to be the devil's advocate here, but why such harshness towards bootleg selling if there is rampant Famicom Chinese bootleg selling everywhere?
It does however get me a little pissed too if someone sells an obvious bootleg but slaps the rare game's price tag on it.
QuoteIt does however get me a little pissed too if someone sells an obvious bootleg but slaps the rare game's price tag on it.
I agree, but that's not what's happening here
Quote from: Raverrevolution on October 29, 2013, 10:56:07 am
Not to be the devil's advocate here, but why such harshness towards bootleg selling if there is rampant Famicom Chinese bootleg selling everywhere?
It does however get me a little pissed too if someone sells an obvious bootleg but slaps the rare game's price tag on it.
Nothing wrong with selling bootlegs, if they're period bootlegs, i.e. from the original time frame in which the stuff was made. If someone during the 1800s copied someone else, trust me, the knockoff brand is sure to still find quite a few buyers, because it is from the original time period.
But modern bootleg crap shit, it is just a cash grab, and I don't like it at all.
this game is almost 20 years old at this point.
gr3y,
There is a very real possibility that whoever buys this will turn around and throw it somewhere like Ebay to make $150 or whatever the going rate is on a real one. There are all kinds of dirty tricks available to frauds to take a similar-looking one like this and make it indistinguishable from an original until they've already got a collector's money.
If a player just needs to play this game on an original console, flash carts are much cheaper than a pile of repros.
And this is not a 20-year old cart. This is probably a homemade job built in the last five years or so, because the US repro/bootleg scene is pretty young.
raver,
This is also different from Chinese Famiclone stuff, because those rarely look anything like an original copy. It's extremely easy to spot the differences, because they're not being made to look like an original. Unlike Famiclones, these kinds of jobs have a high probability of being used to dupe a collector into paying the original's premium.
fcgamer,
We have some differences of opinion on the repro scene in general, as I do see merit in certain kinds of them. Again, I think prototypes and translations are fair game. But bootlegging US releases like Earthbound is definitely a "cash grab", as you put it.
QuoteAnd this is not a 20-year old cart. This is probably a homemade job built in the last five years or so, because the US repro/bootleg scene is pretty young.
I'm obviously talking about earthbound itself. way to talk down to me for no reason.
QuoteIf a player just needs to play this game on an original console, flash carts are much cheaper than a pile of repros.
some people care about appearance, and this looks/is a lot cooler than a flash cart
QuoteThere is a very real possibility that whoever buys this will turn around and throw it somewhere like Ebay to make $150 or whatever the going rate is on a real one. There are all kinds of dirty tricks available to frauds to take a similar-looking one like this and make it indistinguishable from an original until they've already got a collector's money.
you're hating on a basic repro, but your arguments are about fraudsters. yes anyone can defraud anyone through a number of methods. this is a perfectly OK repro that obviously isn't the original, what someone else does with it is on them.
If your going to make a custom label why not put the word repro somewhere on there.
because that wouldn't look nice?
It's obviously not the original. I get it if you're talking about an exact same looking reproduction, but seriously, no one who would buy earthbound would think this was the real cart. all this soapboxing is absurd.
Not selling on NA?
@
List on FW
;D
P.S. @TS you forgot to add WOW!!! L@@K!!! to the title ;D
First off, I like Pikkon's suggestion. I definitely prefer repro labels that say "reproduction" on them, or to at least include the maker's repro brand name/logo as part of the label art.
@80sFREAK,
Yes, I suspect that mods would close this thread if this was Nintendo Age. And if this was listed on Ebay, it could easily be flagged and pulled down there, too. I wonder whether that shouldn't happen here.
gr3y,
Calm down. I'm not condescending to you.
I genuinely thought you may have been suggesting the possibility that this was a '90s bootleg. As has been eluded to in this thread, and certainly discussed elsewhere, pirates have bootlegged these games since the time that they were new. As you quoted me, I even said previously that this is "probably" a more recent bootleg. I'm not aware of Earthbound being pirated in the '90s, but it really wouldn't surprise me if they did.
Otherwise, I don't know why you'd bother to note Earthbound's age. Yes, all SNES carts are 15-20 years old now. The NES and FC games are 20-30 now. What's your point?
And yes, I am focusing on the potential for fraud here. Thieves have sold bootlegs of high-value Nintendo carts as "original" for years. It's the reason all the legitimate, public repro makers have explicit policies against selling them. Repros themselves exist in a legal and ethical gray area (no pun intended). These tinkerers are selling shells only containing a piece of software that they didn't program. Personally, I don't have much sympathy for a company that never made an effort to actually sell us their program as a published game. So again I think things that went unpublished, entirely or at least in our region, are fair game for reproductions.
The legitimate repro scene's value to the retro gaming culture is in increasing the number of games available to us on original hardware, and doing so with some additional aesthetic value thanks to creative, carefully-made, custom labels. This Earthbound bootleg fails on both counts: it's already a game available to Americans, and this label is nothing new or interesting to look at. This is just a quick cash-grab to exploit someone desperate, or a possible investment for someone who will try to resell it as an original. In the latter case, the maker of this bootleg is at least an accessory to fraud. That's why the legit guys don't make these games: they don't want that on their consciences or on their professional reputations.
I'm sorry that such a popular game is so damned expensive. There's now dozens of NES and SNES games in that boat, thanks to the high interest in the hobby. I'm one of the crazy ones; I've spent thousands building up my collection because I have such a strong desire for original copies. But there are cheaper options for folks who are poorer and/or saner than me: we can emulate, we can import cheaper regional copies of many games, and we can invest in flash carts. The brokeness of some vintage gamers doesn't excuse the unethical actions that shady bootleggers resort to in order to scam the big spenders. If you really need to gaze upon a Starman while playing Earthbound on a flash cart, you could always put a Starman on your flash cart too.
Quote from: nerdynebraskan on October 29, 2013, 02:32:03 pm
fcgamer,
We have some differences of opinion on the repro scene in general, as I do see merit in certain kinds of them. Again, I think prototypes and translations are fair game. But bootlegging US releases like Earthbound is definitely a "cash grab", as you put it.
I definitely understand where you are coming from on this one, and to a degree I feel the same way. I remember back when the repro market was still very young, I had paid someone to build be NES game cartridges containing Secret Ties, an excellent unreleased Nintendo game, and Moon Crystal, another great game that was a Japanese exclusive (well unless you count the early 90s bootlegs in 72 pin format, like the one I am currently selling on ebay). So I can find merit in unreleased games, prototypes, and translations making their way into repros. I feel the same way towards homebrew NES / Famicom games too, and would absolutely love to see more homebrew Famicom games made and released. If that Battle Kid games were also released on Famicom format, officially, then I would grab them in a heartbeat, though in NES format I just don't have the interest.
With that said though, these past few years have been a big mess for repros, imo, and it has soured my liking for this stuff in general, though as I said above, I used to like this stuff, and there are some times when I would buy a repro...yeah, call me a hypocrite or whatever, hehe, I won't lose sleep over it ;)
One of the major problems is that people who make these "reproduction" carts for the most part seem to find an unwillingness to properly state what they are, namely fan-made bootlegs of games. If people were more willing to state this, even just somewhere on the label, then I would feel a lot better about the whole situation. But a lot of people seem to prey on the unknowledgeable, and they end up selling these games for hundreds of dollars (repros of released games, translated fan repros, etc). I guess this is good for the person making the money, but it isn't particularly honest, either.
Then there are the folks that sell "repros" of Japanese- exclusive games, just burned onto NES carts. If the game was unreleased, or was text heavy or something, I could understand the need for a repro. But many people will buy repros of a game like Don Doko Don, just because they don't want to be assed about finding a Famicom copy and a converter. And I don't really think that is such a good thing. On Nintendo Age, this sort of thing runs rampant; repro makers offer "new" games by taking random popular Famicom titles, burning them to carts, and releasing "limited edition" carts with numbers. The whole thing seems quite ridiculous to me, and I have lost a lot of respect for Nintendo Age's database since it started including these "repro" titles and the "companies" that make them. And then there is a large amount of hypocrisy going on among those people too, where it is "okay" to reproduce a game like Huge Insect from Sachen, since it is so hard to find, yet it is not okay to reproduce a game like Earthbound, since it is more common.
One of the arguments I hear a lot is that "People can tell that it is a repro, since it doesn't look like the original one". Well to be honest, I am finding new games and game variants on almost a monthly basis, and sometimes it can be hard enough to determine what was produced by the company officially as it is; throw in having to determine if the item was just an extremely rare one-off, or a fanmade thing, that just adds even more layers of nightmares to the mix.
So... how much is the fish? ???
Haha, NintendoAge include repros in their database now? That is wholly laughable, that's made my day :)
Personally I think repros are fine, whatever the age. There's no such things as an official repro or bootleg. These bootlegs are being made in Shenzhen even now, so why is something made in Taiwan 10 years ago any more or less official than something made by a guy in his shed today? It all is a part of the interest for these games, it's part of the ecosystem and I myself don't mind it.
The corruption of taking a repro and selling it for big money, or even worse passing off as a legit copy is not cool however.
What isn't fair in my opinion, is withholding the benefit of the doubt for me people like me who have repros and don't whore them out with any of that corruption. I have repros for my own enjoyment only.
I make my own labels for them and use real shells, but I don't care to put 'reproduction' on the cartridge or anything like that, I think it's ugly. I do however make differences that you would see easily.
So yes, NA is a torrid mess of this stuff, but people want it, so why shouldn't they be able to enjoy a cartridge of something like Recca without paying through the teeth?
Because some folks think they might be corrupt and make forgeries? I don't see why i should change my honest behaviour to conform with that, what happened to innocent until guilty?
It seems to me the only people this tends to really upset are collectors, who spend loads on a game and are afraid of it being devalued. Plus a few folks that don't do their research and overpay for something in a hurry. If you buy a thousand dollar game that is at that price because the demand vs. supply situation, you can't complain when the supply changes. These games shouldn't just be available to the wealthy.
Free markets are free markets, if you buy an expensive game, be prepared it won't always be expensive. If Gimmick was easy to repro with all the sound channels, the price wouldn't be so high.
If Titlers weren't the only RGB systems available with such a good PPU, the price wouldn'y be so high.
Things change, prices change, but people will still want games and find ways to play what they want, it's not a hurtful thing on its own.
That said, flaunting a repro of a common game as 'rare' here was an invite for trouble.
Quote from: L___E___T on October 30, 2013, 09:14:56 am
What isn't fair in my opinion, is withholding the benefit of the doubt for me people like me who have repros and don't whore them out with any of that corruption. I have repros for my own enjoyment only.
I make my own labels for them and use real shells, but I don't care to put 'reproduction' on the cartridge or anything like that, I think it's ugly. I do however make differences that you would see easily.
Because some folks think they might be corrupt and make forgeries? I don't see why i should change my honest behaviour to conform with that, what happened to innocent until guilty?
Thank you for saying what I've been trying to say, better than I could say it :p
Edit:
QuoteThat said, flaunting a repro of a common game as 'rare' here was an invite for trouble.
Quoteflaunting a repro of a common game as 'rare'
Quotea repro of a common game
Quotecommon game
wut ._.
edit 2: now I broke the word common. it looks weird.
Maybe not common, but it's not limited run and it's not rare really, just very very wanted.
Quote from: L___E___T on October 30, 2013, 09:14:56 am
So yes, NA is a torrid mess of this stuff, but people want it, so why shouldn't they be able to enjoy a cartridge of something like Recca without paying through the teeth?
Because some folks think they might be corrupt and make forgeries? I don't see why i should change my honest behaviour to conform with that, what happened to innocent until guilty?
It seems to me the only people this tends to really upset are collectors, who spend loads on a game and are afraid of it being devalued. Plus a few folks that don't do their research and overpay for something in a hurry. If you buy a thousand dollar game that is at that price because the demand vs. supply situation, you can't complain when the supply changes. These games shouldn't just be available to the wealthy.
Free markets are free markets, if you buy an expensive game, be prepared it won't always be expensive. If Gimmick was easy to repro with all the sound channels, the price wouldn't be so high.
I remember as a child going to an American Civil War museum and gift shop, and I bought a set of shiny Confederate coins for my collection. On the coins themselves though, were the words "Copy" in small print. Yes, this is (imo) a bit unsightly, but at the same time, it is understandable why it is done, and I wish more people were to put this into practice with these games.
As I had mentioned earlier, it seems as though the majority of these so-called repro makers are not fully honest about what they are selling, and that can cause major problems for collectors and people who are researching games. As an example, some Color Dreams games were published for the Famicom in certain regions, officially. No one ever seems to be sure exactly of which titles exist, and if any others exist. Now Joe Smith might easily put Secret Scout or Operation Secret Storm on a Famicom cartridge for his own jollies, and then he eventually sells the thing. The game is then sold for a semi-high price, and people can't research it further, because there just isn't information about it out there. And Joe, who is either a greedy git or an honest seller that fears that his auction will be removed, doesn't say a word that he made the game. The game sells for a high price, and then the new owner is stuck trying to figure out just exactly what it is, that he has. Maybe he is able to determine that it is a repro, and then he feels cheated, or maybe he feels that it is not a repro and is authentic, but then this wrong information gets passed around the internet. Either way, it is not a good outcome.
As for collectors and the repro thing: In my opinion, no one has any right to say that repros are okay, until he or she has a horse in the game. I am not rich by any means, but I just have low rent to pay, and besides by girlfriend, I just have little to spend my money on. Sure, I should save more than I do, but I only have a few larger puchases to make until I finish my collection, so the full force saving will probably start next year. My point though, is that I am just an average guy, but I have spent upwards of $500 - $600 USD for certain games in my collection; there are only a few of these gems though. But if we discuss $100 - $200 games, suddenly I have spent more for them. When I spend that kind of money on a game for my collection, it certainly does matter what other people are doing, concerning the value of my game. While I could care less if I can sell the game for $10 or $1000, I do care that the game is known to be a legitimate copy of the game, a legitimate box, a legitimate manual, etc. And all of these modern counterfeits, or repros, take away from that, steal that away from me.
People want to reprint boxes for some unlicensed Famicom games. I saw an unlicensed game with box and manual for FC that tonight sold for just shy of $200; with only the game cartridge, the game would have sold for $10 - $15 tops. When I have spent my hard earned money to take the extra time and effort to purchase these boxes, or to track down and purchase the original cartridges, it certainly does matter when a bigger force comes in that could ruin the value and call into question the authenticy of my items. That is a big problem.
If people want to play the games so much, just buy a flash cart, or do like I do and save up for the game. There was one game I saved up for, for a period of 3 months, but it felt good when the game finally arrived. Sure, some of the prices are crazy, but there are certainly other options available for gamers, than just to pirate the games at will, while making them look terribly authentic. Sure, I might not have my priorities in order, when it comes to funds, spending, and my gaming collection, but at the same time, the person that goes out to a fancy dinner once or twice a week probably spends a lot of cash too, so it should all be looked at in perspective.
Post Merge: October 30, 2013, 11:04:29 am
Quote from: L___E___T on October 30, 2013, 09:14:56 am
Haha, NintendoAge include repros in their database now? That is wholly laughable, that's made my day :)
Yeah they are in the database, and I think that some of them even have rarities attributed to them, something which I had called into question, but without much success.
To be honest, so much of NA is a joke these days, anything goes there. I read the magazine, but even some of the recent information in there is weird.
Thing is, I get what you're saying, but I like repros myself exactly because it means I don't have to track down a copy of a thousand dollar cart.
If I had that kind of money to spend, I would. These days I just don't. Having said that, I have spent big money on the past on loose games and on handbills, when I could have found a cheaper solution.
I will get round to getting those carts one day but for now repros have to do. Yes I have them on a flashcart, but it's not the same.
It's a tricky topic because everyone has a different sense of priorities.
For you, the historical cataloging is paramount, for others fighting corruption is paramount, and for others still finding a cheap cart is paramount.
I don't think anyone's personal priority should be politically imposed on other gamers or the retro gaming scene, even if it was possible to (which it isn't).
If someone was palming off repros as real genuine legit items I certainly wouldn't spare them any mercy - but whenever I've seen that happen there's always been plenty of comeuppance for the corrupt seller in focus, big time.
The thing is, you say you dislike people making boxes because this means you have to spend more - but how is that different from the gamers who don't like a lack of repros because they then have to spend more?
Isn't it pretty similar? You could say to them 'play on an emulator', but then could they say to you 'catalogue images, not physical boxes' - is that pretty similar too? It's not the same but I think there are parallels.
I think this is a healthy discussion and I'm not going to shy away from stating my personal opinion on it. People tend to like or dislike repros when money comes into it, which exactly why they are here to stay, for better or worse.
To take the shiny coin analogy - that does happen - look at Nintendo's Game & Watch Ball repros, or the Love Tester repro. Heck these are official repros folks, it's ok for Nintendo to do it but not for DIY enthusiasts?
I include notable differences on my repros, which are very easy to spot beside the fact they don't look new and clearly have a home made label on them.
Yes it's tricky when you have convincing GBA bootlegs, but there are always ways to safeguard buying a bootleg or repro, so I don't buy that these are the evil of retro gaming, I see them as the equivalent of an aftermarket classic car that you actually want to drive around affordably, because you don't have hundreds of thousands for a real one.
I don't think you need to own a very expensive item to have a valid opinion on this, everyone's opinion is valid so long as it's informed. Having said that I do have a horse in the stable so to speak.
Lots going on here...
fcgamer,
1) I also exempt homebrew games from any kind of repro cart criticism. I'd be really into the Battle Kid games, if they didn't have save-state difficulty.
2) I would be reluctant to label all repros "fan-made bootlegs." I guess the most basic definitions of bootleg in this context do only refer to an unauthorized copy, which would apply here. But in copyright-specific references, even on Wikipedia, this form of bootlegging is explicitly made synonymous with counterfeiting. Obviously fan translations, unreleased prototypes, and hack sequels don't qualify as counterfeit because there is no conventionally-released version for them to be imitating. Selling home-made knockoffs of Earthbound, on the other hand, is counterfeiting. I would prefer to see every repro sold either marked on the label as "reproduction" or bear the logo of the maker; I think repro/reproduction is a bit more of a neutral label in this scene.
3) I agree that there are definite opportunities to sell repros for huge amounts on places like Ebay, just by neglecting to call them repros. I'll admit I paid too much for my first repro, dropping $40 on the 'Bay for a Super Mario 2J. I just didn't know where else to buy them at that time; luckily, the seller was a major repro maker who was basically selling on Ebay only slightly higher than he would on his own site (to offset Ebay's fees). It's easy for knowledgeable nerds on a gaming message board to tease the ignorant and gullible for paying $100 for a common Bio Force Ape repro, but I think the burden of a crime is not on those who are willing to trust, but on those who are willing to abuse that trust. The possibilities for fraud are much worse for anyone unethical enough to build, say, a Dinosaur Peak repro and put an original looking label on it. Not only is that a textbook case of fraud, but it breeds paranoia around anyone who would ever buy or sell a legit copy and that's just not fair.
4) I don't generally see much merit in making repro versions of non-US NES/FC action games, either. I don't really understand why someone would pay $25 for a repro of Dig Dug, when you can get an original FC version for $10 and it'll work perfectly fine on the adapter yanked out of a Gyromite cart. I don't see a lot of gaming or artistic merit in reproducing games like that, with few exceptions.
I'm kind of conflicted on the merit of reproducing extremely rare things like the Sachen games. Two of the only three Famicom action games I have repros of are the Korean originals Buzz & Waldog (AKA Koko Adventure) and Metal Force. It was less about me being cheap and more about me having serious doubts that I'd ever find one if/when I had the money to afford one. I'd been considering a Rocman X repro, when you showed up here with an extra. I got lucky, there. But I guess if one turned up in my price range sometime, I could always upgrade to a legit copy, right?
I also have a Recca repro, which is also kind of a curious case. I don't have an original cart, but I'd like to get one someday. But it's still very convenient that this repro has been hacked to allow all of the gameplay options upfront. As I understand it, you have to beat the main game on an original cart to unlock these special features every time you want to use them. So in a way my repro is actually a kind of enhanced version, and I don't know if I'd get rid of it if/when I get a legit copy of Recca.
5) The whole "limited edition" thing is incredibly lame. That drives prices up on some of these even very common games into three digits, and that's just a matter of gouging the collectors with completionist impulses. Again, I don't like seeing people get taken advantage of because they're passionate for a hobby.
6) I don't see any repros in Nintendo Age's NES database. Where are they posted?
7) I'm definitely in agreement with your criticisms of duplicating boxes and manuals, since those can be especially hard to distinguish from originals. Those of us who collect originals are in this for the admittedly irrational joy of feeling the history of the item (whatever it is) in our hands. When we can't be sure we're holding a true original, or whether some jerk printed a bunch of fake copies to rip us off, it really sucks this joy out of our hobby. That's a big reason why counterfeiting this stuff upsets me. The integrity of the hobby is more important to me than the value of my collection.
8) For anyone who cares, I'm pretty much in the same position as fcgamer financially. I'm not wealthy by any means; this is just pretty much the only hobby I throw money at.
L_E_T,
1) I don't have the same kind of opposition to you owning bootlegs for personal use. Your single copies aren't really part of this chaos, and you're not profiting from this chaos. Sadly, many of the potential buyers for them are not so trustworthy, which is why the major repro sellers don't make them for anybody. And I would agree with them that this is the best policy.
2) I don't think vintage gaming should be limited to those with thousands of dollars to spend on their hobby, either. I'm glad there are so many ways for people to play these things, and most of them are vastly less expensive than buying original copies: PC emulation, hacked Dreamcasts/X-Boxes/Wiis, Famiclone pirates, and flash carts. In fact, original copies are still pretty inexpensive for about 80% of the libraries of most vintage systems. Originals are typically only stupidly expensive for the very rare items.
3) Earthbound is kind of an unusual case in this regard. Nintendo Age rates the Earthbound cart as a Rarity-4 (Common), on their ten-point scale. And this honestly sounds about right. If you go to Ebay on any given day, there are about 50 copies for sale. With most $100+ NES/SNES carts, you're lucky to see five copies for sale at any given time.
4) I suppose I would summarize our main disagreement this way: I don't believe we're simply entitled to every game we want, either. (This is like the flip-side of the coin from #2.) Obviously everyone on this forum gets a great deal of satisfaction out of video gaming, but as has been stated all over this thread there are many ways to enjoy any given Nintendo game.
I will never own a gold Nintendo World Championships cart. I'll probably never own a box or manual for my copy of Dinosaur Peak. I may not ever buy a US version of Little Samson, since I've got a legit PAL NES copy and I can't believe how expensive that game has become. (I've basically resigned myself to the fate that I'll only get an American Samson via thrift store/yard sale miracle.) But you know what? This is all ok. I can still play all of these games, and that's the most important thing. (One of my buddies in town has the NWC repro.)
Quote
L_E_T,
1) I don't have the same kind of opposition to you owning bootlegs for personal use. Your single copies aren't really part of this chaos, and you're not profiting from this chaos.
someone has to make it for he and I to buy it....
Quote
Sadly, many of the potential buyers for them are not so trustworthy, which is why the major repro sellers don't make them for anybody. And I would agree with them that this is the best policy
overgeneralizing. Saying most potential buyers of 1:1 repros are fraudsters is a really baseless claim. In any case the original reply's disdain was directed toward the poster here who clearly stated it's a repro. There's nothing wrong with this thread. People who want to commit fraud will find a way to do so, but this is akin to an argument of 'ban cars cause some people drink and drive'
QuoteI can still play all of these games, and that's the most important thing. (One of my buddies in town has the NWC repro.)
fraud is wrong, but THIS is exactly why straight reproductions are fine.... if you can't afford the real thing, sometimes it is nice to have a real cart of a reproduction of it.
Your formatting is a mess, gray, but I think I understand your comments.
You can think I'm over-generalizing about the potential for fraud all you like, but it has become a major problem within the gaming collectors' scene. NES and SNES bootlegs are not needed for gamers to enjoy the games, so why make and sell one to someone you don't know when they could easily turn and throw it on Ebay to scam a collector? It's not worth the trouble, and luckily the major repro makers already agree with me on this.
Your desire for an Earthbound bootleg (at least hypothetically, given your continued defenses of the one in the OP) doesn't closely compare to my ability to enjoy an NWC repro. The Nintendo World Championships cart was never released commercially in any region; original carts are closer in quantity to prototypes than they are to any truly distributed games. And the game's many options and settings were installed as hardware (dipswitches on the cart) rather than software (in-game menus), which makes recreating it properly on a flash cart practically impossible. I'd probably never actually own even a repro of it, but I have been considering repros of some of Nintendo's Vs. series (which were only originally released as arcade cabinets, and which also use dipswitches).
If you really want an Earthbound cart, just save up and buy a real one. From your other posts here, it is clear that you prefer original hardware and you've got some money to spend on it. If it's not a priority for your collection, let it go. It's not a really rare game; people do still find them at thrift stores and yard sales occasionally. Maybe you'll score one for next-to-nothing.
Fixed the formatting. not sure why that happened.
but look, i'm not defending exact copy repros. I'm defending copy repros with a label that no one would mistake for the original.
And sure, copy bootlegs are a problem in the collector scene, but that doesnt justify your assumption that most of the people who would buy this would try to rip people off (especially since the label is different...). EVEN if that were true, that doesnt make the seller (who is honest) wrong. So your argument against this cart being sold in this manner is really weak.
Quote from: MasterDisk on November 01, 2013, 07:58:23 am
How 'bout you guys let yakuza sell his stuff without this giant argument going on?
I'm impressed it's already 2 pages long, many have posted (mods too) and no member or mod has done a thing.
lol....... hahaha that's alright ...
Quote from: MasterDisk on November 01, 2013, 07:58:23 am
How 'bout you guys let yakuza sell his stuff without this giant argument going on?
I'm impressed it's already 2 pages long, many have posted (mods too) and no member or mod has done a thing.
this was basically my point the entire time, why hate on this guy's thread for some moral point about repros that isn't really applicable here.
Earthbound is overrated, quite simple. Nothing too cool about that cart, imo.
Regarding Mario World, nice cart, but are you sure that is the full version? I thought the full version was only available on the 45 in 1 multicart...
@MD
I haven't "done a thing" because there's nothing I can do about this bootleg, besides make a case for why it shouldn't be tolerated here or any other collector's forum or marketplace.
@gray
I have never said that "most" potential buyers of this Earthbound bootleg are just out to make a buck off of it by duping a collector. I have certainly not accused you, or anyone else on this forum who may be sympathetic to these counterfeits, of being out to scam with these.
My position, once again, is that the potential for fraud here is not just great. It has also been demonstrated across many scams over the past few years. This potential for fraud vastly outweighs the entitlement of a penny-pinching collector, who wants original-ish carts of everything but isn't willing to pay the premiums.
Since it is impossible to know the true motives of a stranger over the internet, anyone who makes these things can easily end up selling one that will wind up on Ebay in a month posing as the Real McCoy to separate a trusting collector from his spare $150. Some of the legit repro guys have been burned on this before, which is what prompted the rules changes. This is already precedent in the respectable repro community; I'm glad for this, hope for it stay that way, and hope for that to become established here as well.
And your argument for minor label variations is actually very weak. Most would-be scammers lack the technical skills to build their own repro carts. However, the skills and equipment needed to make counterfeit labels are much more common. Someone could buy this, make an almost-exact bootleg label, and then try to pass it off. Even if they didn't have that skill, they could intentionally destroy the parts of this label that aren't the same and sell it as a discounted "players' copy." Or, since replacement labels have started to become fashionable in some collectors' circles, a slick scammer could claim that this is an original copy with a new label (and they've... cough, cough, misplaced their security bit screwdriver so they can't show pics of the board). Or you could always just use really bad photos, and leave some poor collector to hope for the best and take a chance. I'm not even a real, talented scammer, and I've already given you four easy ways to scam with this cart.
We'll never be able to eradicate modern bootlegs like this one, but if we ever started to tolerate them as a community that would really open the floodgates. Counterfeiting has cast a serious pall over many collecting hobbies, and I don't want to see that happen to ours as well.
Quote from: yakuza on November 01, 2013, 08:37:29 am
Quote from: MasterDisk on November 01, 2013, 07:58:23 am
How 'bout you guys let yakuza sell his stuff without this giant argument going on?
I'm impressed it's already 2 pages long, many have posted (mods too) and no member or mod has done a thing.
lol....... hahaha that's alright ...
So... how much? $30 with free shipping?
QuoteThis potential for fraud vastly outweighs the entitlement of a penny-pinching collector, who wants original-ish carts of everything but isn't willing to pay the premiums.
lol entitlement, people like what they like, there you go being condescending again. If I wanna play the game on original hardware on a nice looking cart I should be able to do that.
QuoteMost would-be scammers lack the technical skills to build their own repro carts. However, the skills and equipment needed to make counterfeit labels are much more common. Someone could buy this, make an almost-exact bootleg label, and then try to pass it off.
scammers will scam. once again, people make poor/shady/illegal decisions with things, doesnt mean you should make those things off limits. the bottom line is this is all opinion and really doesnt give you the right to crap all over this guy's thread with your idea of repro morals. there's nothing wrong with what he is selling. If someone does something bad with it that's on them.
Reproduction: n. a copy of a work of art
TL;DR chill out dude you are not the repro police and your anger is misdirected.
This is probably my last reply to you on this thread, gray.
Condescending again? The first time you accused me of that here, it was because I had misinterpreted an ambiguous comment of yours. Your claim then was baseless. This time, it's probably true.
There are no good reasons for this Earthbound bootleg to exist. The game already exists in decent quantities in our region, and there are dozens of them available for sale everyday on Ebay. Yes, the original copies have become expensive because of its cult status, but there are many cheap ways to enjoy this game. The flash cart route will even allow you to play it with an original SNES console and controller-in-hand. But this has all been said many times now, and it doesn't seem to matter to you. Why?
I think this does come down to entitlement. You seem to feel as if you're owed a "nice" Earthbound, and on the cheap and easy. (Though Earthbound may be a stand-in here for any number of rare and/or coveted games that few of us ever seem to have, and most of us seem to want.) If you really need this as a pillar of your collection, just go get a real one. It's not like you're going to view that bootleg on your shelf as anything more than a placeholder. Save up and buy one online, or do some hunting in the thrift store/yard sale scene, or do some reselling to raise the money. For most collectors (myself included), the hunt is as satisfying as the acquisition itself. And if it's not worth the work, maybe you don't really need it afterall.
For what it's worth, I technically have an Earthbound in my game room, but it's not even mine. My girlfriend is a huge fan of the series, and I organized a trade for it on her behalf. She spent $150 buying up some of my doubles that a collector in Canada was interested in, and I dealt with international shipping headaches to send him the stuff so he'd send her his Earthbound. Of course, this was all totally worth it. She adores the game, and I'll probably play through it one of these days as well.
A major part of the appeal in collecting originals of anything is the sense of history that comes with that. It's true of baseball cards, antiques, and now it's the same with vintage video games. The collectors' outrage toward counterfeits is not just about the risk of us getting scammed by the shady characters who like to prey on us. And it's bigger than our fears of depreciation, should a flood of fakes crash the market on our collection (as has happened in other hobbies). The thing that really burns many of us when it comes to counterfeiting collectibles is the sense of doubt that comes with a scene flooded with fakes: if we can't be sure of its age, we don't really get to revel in the history of it the way we wanted to. And that someone would rob us of that to make a few ill-gotten dollars is what is really terrible.
I think your definition of reproduction is too broad to be useful here. Whether it's your intention or not, you're lumping in prints of famous paintings with the bootleg video games in question, and that's not a valid comparison. Picasso only painted one "Guernica"; the print of it in my living room can in no way be confused with the original. Mine is ink printed on paper; paint on canvas is an entirely, obviously different thing. If not for the photographs and prints of "Guernica", the only way anyone in the world would be able to enjoy it is by travelling halfway across the world to see it in its museum. My "Guernica" print would be analogous to the online emulation community in gaming: a cheap imitation meant only to spread the brilliance of the piece far and wide to anyone who'd like to enjoy it. This bootleg Earthbound would be more akin to someone trying to create a paint-and-canvas copy of the famous painting, which is a tactic (not surprisingly) associated with art thieves burglarizing museums.
And in the end, your only argument left is to equivocate our positions by saying that we're both only offering opinions. (That, and attempting to rub in my lack of real authority on this matter with the "repro police" jab.) First of all, this is still a discussion forum. Trading opinions is the main reason these things exist. Secondly, some opinions are more valid than others. I've tried to back mine up with facts and careful analogies. (Though that also makes me long-winded, admittedly.) Your opinion is obviously different, but you're entitled to that. But obviously this is in an important issue, or we wouldn't have spent the last week arguing about it on this thread, would we?
Quote from: 80sFREAK on November 01, 2013, 05:03:21 pm
Quote from: yakuza on November 01, 2013, 08:37:29 am
Quote from: MasterDisk on November 01, 2013, 07:58:23 am
How 'bout you guys let yakuza sell his stuff without this giant argument going on?
I'm impressed it's already 2 pages long, many have posted (mods too) and no member or mod has done a thing.
lol....... hahaha that's alright ...
So... how much? $30 with free shipping?
Lol are you kidding me !
Why not? At least one SNES repro maker sells them for $25 shipped with donor cart. Given that the donors used for SNES repros are almost entirely cheap, common, late EA sports games, I don't see how $30 shipped is a terrible offer. A real Earthbound is only worth $150+ because it's, you know, original and not made in some guy's garage.
Quote from: yakuza on November 01, 2013, 06:53:16 pm
Quote from: 80sFREAK on November 01, 2013, 05:03:21 pm
Quote from: yakuza on November 01, 2013, 08:37:29 am
Quote from: MasterDisk on November 01, 2013, 07:58:23 am
How 'bout you guys let yakuza sell his stuff without this giant argument going on?
I'm impressed it's already 2 pages long, many have posted (mods too) and no member or mod has done a thing.
lol....... hahaha that's alright ...
So... how much? $30 with free shipping?
Lol are you kidding me !
Please do spill, what is the cheapest you would go on this cart, lol. If the game was handmade, why the need to charge mucho dollars for it?!
Quote from: yakuza on November 01, 2013, 06:53:16 pm
Quote from: 80sFREAK on November 01, 2013, 05:03:21 pm
Quote from: yakuza on November 01, 2013, 08:37:29 am
Quote from: MasterDisk on November 01, 2013, 07:58:23 am
How 'bout you guys let yakuza sell his stuff without this giant argument going on?
I'm impressed it's already 2 pages long, many have posted (mods too) and no member or mod has done a thing.
lol....... hahaha that's alright ...
So... how much? $30 with free shipping?
Lol are you kidding me !
Not at all. volumerates sold their bootlegs for $3 include shipping, so i offered 10(ten!) times more. TBH while ago i was ofered to make a repro of a... Gimmick for about what i offered to you, so i suppose it's "market value"
QuoteYou seem to feel as if you're owed a "nice" Earthbound, and on the cheap and easy.
sod off, dude. just cause i might want to play the game and have a nice presentable cart instead of using a flash cart, doesnt mean i feel 'owed' that. that's just my preference.
I'm done arguing with you, since you feel the need to speak from the position that you're above others in this thread who don't agree with your opinion.
Quote from: gr3yh47 on November 02, 2013, 05:13:13 am
QuoteYou seem to feel as if you're owed a "nice" Earthbound, and on the cheap and easy.
sod off, dude. just cause i might want to play the game and have a nice presentable cart instead of using a flash cart, doesnt mean i feel 'owed' that. that's just my preference.
I'm done arguing with you, since you feel the need to speak from the position that you're above others in this thread who don't agree with your opinion.
He isn't above others, he just wasn't born of the entitlement era.
All of your justifications about why people should make carts like this basically boil down to the argument you presented (once again), above: "just cause I might want to play the game and have a nice presentable cart instead of using a flash cart, doesn't mean I feel 'owed' that."
If this is your preference, then sell some things, save some money, work two jobs, whatever and save up and buy a nice (authentic) cart; the game is not rare, not hard to find this thing.
But then you will say, "Oh, but it is too expensive for me, but I still want to have a nice cart."
Well that is where the entitlement part comes in. Why do all of these people think that you can have your cake and eat it too, so to speak?
Quotethe entitlement era.
So you're what, gen x, or a baby boomer? born in a time of economic growth? and low debt? lower taxes? less income inequality? low unemployment?
Even if you aren't, the whole 'entitlement era/generation' phrase/concept was coined by people who grew up and started their careers in an incredible economic time, and then torched it, and left the burden of cleaning up on the next generation.
To quote Adam Weinstein:
Quote
You have no idea about student debt, underemployment, life-long renting. "Stop feeling special" is some shitty advice. I don't feel special or entitled, just poor. The only thing that makes me special is I have more ballooning debt than you. I've tempered the hell out of my expectations of work, and I've exceeded those expectations crazily to have one interesting, exciting damned career that's culminated in some leadership roles for national publications. And I'm still poor and in debt and worked beyond the point where it can be managed with my health and my desire to actually see the son I'm helping to raise.
You seem to feel like it's ok to tell me to suck it up and get another job, save up, and drop over $200 on one game; and yet, you've never met me, and you don't know my situation. I already have 2 jobs and my wife has one too, and we find it difficult to save up money for important things, much less something like such an expensive game. If I wanted to have a nice looking
REPRODUCTION :o of a game, and someone out there is making them, then yeah I might buy it.
Wanting something is NOT equal to feeling 'entitled' to that. Reducing someone's preferences or desires to that phrase is unbelievably condescending and insulting.
And the only thing my argument 'boils down to' is that this guy isn't selling a counterfeit, and so you shouldn't have crapped all over his thread because someone might buy it and use it in a way it wasn't intended (scamming)
Wow you guys. Just wow haha...
I'm just going to jump out and say that I prefer to collect bootlegs over originals any day. I know that this discussion is about reproductions; not bootlegs, but when it comes down to it, there is a pretty thin line separating the two. It's an unofficial cartridge, with an official game stored on it. Is the developer making money, or is the person who "stole" the intellectual property making money?
For me it isn't even about piracy. Anyone can go out and find an original game, but believe it or not, it's not as easy as it sounds to collect a load of bootlegs, at least in this part of the world.
Interesting take on things, although i think that there is definitely a difference between a modern reproduction and a same time period bootleg. When the bootlegs came out, they were taking money from devs/publishers/etc but now even buying the original cart doesnt give anyone but the previous owner money so it's a repro not a counterfeit or bootleg which was designed to be passed off as original.
You do gotta love some of the bootlegs out there though, especially for famicom good gracious. Somari. Mario 4 through whatever. etc etc. lot of humorous stuff. I played a mario 1 bootleg where everything was exactly the same but you're a panda. hilarity.
Quote from: FCgamer
I own a game merchandise catalogue from Whirlwind Manu, one of those large bootleg game companies from the late 1980s and early 1990s.
I'd love to see some (low res) images - that sounds like a really awesome find, how good is the photography etc? As a handbill collector, that is the bootleg equivalent of a handbill, sounds great.
Quote from: fcgamer on November 02, 2013, 09:07:05 am
Somari is in a totally different group of animals, and shouldn't be compared to the bootleg stuff we are talking about here. Sure, it uses trademarks and stuff illegally, but Tengen Tetris infringed on rights too. If someone reskinned Somari, it would be a perfectly legal work, as it was built from the grounds up and is an original, unlicensed title.
Mario 4, yeah that would just be a common bootleg or whatever, a common game hack of another game.
The only reason that people call these modern counterfeits "reproductions" is because it sounds nicer to many folks. There is nothing separating these from ones made during the period, plain and simple, both are illegal and are just as counterfeit as the others.
nothing separating them except, oh, maybe the definition of the word
Counterfeit: a fraudulent imitation of something else; a forgery. made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud.
Reproduction: a copy of a work of art
This particular cart is quite obviously the latter. Seriously, no one disagrees with you about counterfeits being wrong but this is NOT a counterfeit... by definition.
Your argument is like saying people shouldn't be able to sell reproduced paintings of Starry Night because someone might try to resell it as though it were the original... And anyone who would want to hang a reproduction of starry night in their house without the word REPRO written on it somewhere are just entitled...
Quote from: gr3yh47 on November 02, 2013, 09:32:22 am
Quote from: fcgamer on November 02, 2013, 09:07:05 am
Somari is in a totally different group of animals, and shouldn't be compared to the bootleg stuff we are talking about here. Sure, it uses trademarks and stuff illegally, but Tengen Tetris infringed on rights too. If someone reskinned Somari, it would be a perfectly legal work, as it was built from the grounds up and is an original, unlicensed title.
Mario 4, yeah that would just be a common bootleg or whatever, a common game hack of another game.
The only reason that people call these modern counterfeits "reproductions" is because it sounds nicer to many folks. There is nothing separating these from ones made during the period, plain and simple, both are illegal and are just as counterfeit as the others.
nothing separating them except, oh, maybe the definition of the word
Counterfeit: a fraudulent imitation of something else; a forgery. made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud.
Reproduction: a copy of a work of art
This particular cart is quite obviously the latter. Seriously, no one disagrees with you about counterfeits being wrong but this is NOT a counterfeit... by definition.
Your argument is like saying people shouldn't be able to sell reproduced paintings of Starry Night because someone might try to resell it as though it were the original... And anyone who would want to hang a reproduction of starry night in their house without the word REPRO written on it somewhere are just entitled...
Nope, that argument is guavas to bananas, my friend ;D
The game is a copy of a high value cart. It certainly can deceive, as it looks quite real. I should ask for Earthbound for SNES for Christmas and see if my folks or brother or aunt or someone can get me one. It will be interesting if I get the real one, or if they get deceived by a counterfeit such as the one being sold here. To some, it might seem obvious to be a fake, but to others, sure it will definitely deceive.
I don't think the guys making reproductions of van Gogh's Starry Night are breaking the law either...but the guy who made this cart broke the law, no two ways about it.
Now going back to this here entitlement thing. See here, if you want Earthbound, there are plenty of ways you can legitimately get it, without resorting to purchasing counterfeits. It isn't anyone's right to even play the game (there are plenty of people the world over who can't even afford a gaming machine), it is even less of a right to feel that you can have the game, and can have it at the price you want.
Gray,
I'm not rich, either. I net less than $20,000 a year, while partially supporting my under-employed girlfriend, and not getting any substantial assistance from anyone else. I don't own a car, I buy my clothes and housewares at yard sales and thrift stores, and I carefully stock up on groceries when they're on sale. While it's true I have no debts aside from my mortgage, I've achieved that by carefully living within (and often below) my means on everything except my game collecting. And I mostly subsidize that through reselling.
So no, I'm not willing to let you play the poverty card here. If you're really in as desperate shape as you're inferring, you'd probably have trouble ponying up the $30-50 a pop for repros and NES/SNES bootlegs anyway. If I were in the situation you're claiming, I'd probably stick to a flash cart and pirates. As it is, I don't even like to buy repros. I'll spend a year scrounging up the donor sports games for a buck apiece, and send in 50 of them to a repro maker so I can get my repro carts for the equivalent of less than $10 apiece.
My ability to enjoy the collection I have, with the financial limitations that I have to work through, is proof that you can have a great collection even while being poor. But it does require hard work and patience; at least once, I've waited over a year to buy my most wanted game. But you want to cut corners to meet your desires, and you don't care what that means to the rest of our community. That impatience, selfishness, and entitlement is why I don't respect your position.
And one last nitpick: If you want to insult me, cut the crap. We're not British, and it's not cute for Americans to hide behind the "class" of British profanity. Just tell me to fuck off, alright?
fcgamer,
I appreciate your defenses. You and I are both passionate for this hobby, and the community around it. We both understand the sacrifices that this scene can be worth, even as we go about that differently. But we still have our disagreements.
QuoteThe only reason that people call these modern counterfeits "reproductions" is because it sounds nicer to many folks. There is nothing separating these from ones made during the period, plain and simple, both are illegal and are just as counterfeit as the others. To say that these are less illegal or more acceptable just because the companies are no longer producing these games (which is only half true, since these "repros" could steal revenue from Nintendo's virtual console project...) is just silly.
I disagree with most of that.
I do like the word "reproduction" to be used to apply to some, but not all, of the modern, fan-made (or commonly recycled) game carts. I draw a hard line in limiting the games in this category, to mean only games that were not normally published here. Whether that was a cancelled prototype, a game that we missed because it didn't get published here, or a modern hack sequel, these all share many important characteristics:
1) The game company that developed the title never gave us the chance to buy it. Whether that meant cancelling a game's release even with a finished prototype in hand, or only publishing their game in another part of the world, they never gave us a chance to buy it on an NES cart. And now that the format is officially dead, there will never be an official release.
2) This software was so important to the vintage gaming community that it was immortalized in the ROM dumping scene. People in our community care so much about the preservation of this history that they found ways to extract the data, so that it would outlive its original hardware. A number of known prototypes no longer work, as they were thrown together cheaply. They were only meant to convey the game's features for a short time, after all, but NES prototypes are now 20-30 years old. (Restoring these now-immortal ROMs back to their original cartridge format through reproduction actually completes the cycle. The software is able to be used on its original console, as it was intended for.)
3) These games are innovative, compelling, or influential enough that they are still fascinating to us 20 years after their non-release. Mother/Earthbound Zero and Sweet Home proved to be influential on gaming to come, and they're both solid, enjoyable RPGs. (But many gamers, myself included, can't read Japanese and thus the only official copies of these games are unplayable to us.) Drac's Night Out and Sunman are original, entertaining games that only officially exist on a handful of dying proto carts. (Even Star Trek V, an admittedly mediocre game, is still fun to someone like me who loves both Nintendo and Star Trek.)
4) Some of these games can also be found on the old pirate carts that you're so fond of, but those aren't always a viable option either. There are reliability issues there, too: most were built cheaply and are dying just like protos, and some aren't even fully compatible as they may have been designed for use on a Famiclone which may not have even been identical to an official FC/NES. And pirates are so strange; in their efforts to cover their tracks, it often takes a great deal of research to know which pirate carts even have the right games (and which ones aren't badly glitched, incomplete, etc.)
In the end, a true repro is a game that is preserving the history of this era of gaming. We're able to live and re-live the joy of this games by plugging them into an original console and playing them the way they were intended to. This is a fantasy that is only fulfilled by reproductions, since there is literally no other way to do this reliably. And in ten years, when age and shoddy worksmanship end the last of the original protos and most of the older pirates, repros and flash carts will be all that's left.
Now, this is obviously not the case for anything like the Earthbound bootleg in the OP. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of original carts still in circulation and most of them are prized and cared for. The fantasy of plugging this prized game into a real console is not that rare an experience, and it won't necessarily become one for many, many years. Commercially licensed and sold Nintendo carts were built with excellent materials, and they've held up exceptionally well. An original Earthbound cart will likely outlive this bootleg and its cheap chips, and it could easily outlive the last WiiU with an Earthbound ROM downloaded via Virtual Console.
As for the legal issues surrounding all of this:
Yes, these modern copies are infringing on still-copyrighted software, but I won't shed a tear for a company that never tried to take my money for it in the first place. And no, it's not the same for me to play official re-releases of these games on the modern consoles (if and when applicable). These things were programmed to be played on a controller with two buttons, and it's just not the same using a controller with 12 buttons on it.
And I don't think repros are a serious threat to profits when it comes to cashing in on Nintendo/Konami/Capcom's back catalog. Some of us don't even own the modern consoles, so we're not even potential consumers for the Virtual Console anyway. And some of us love the games so much that we buy them over and over anyway. I could easily see an Earthbound nut having a NES repro and a FC original of the first game, the SNES and SFC versions of the second, an original and English repro of Mother 3 for the GBA, and having the games downloaded onto their modern console via Virtual Console (or equivalence). Oh, and ROMs for all three games on their PC, for good measure.
Quote from: gr3yh47 on November 02, 2013, 09:32:22 am
Quote from: fcgamer on November 02, 2013, 09:07:05 am
Somari is in a totally different group of animals, and shouldn't be compared to the bootleg stuff we are talking about here. Sure, it uses trademarks and stuff illegally, but Tengen Tetris infringed on rights too. If someone reskinned Somari, it would be a perfectly legal work, as it was built from the grounds up and is an original, unlicensed title.
Mario 4, yeah that would just be a common bootleg or whatever, a common game hack of another game.
The only reason that people call these modern counterfeits "reproductions" is because it sounds nicer to many folks. There is nothing separating these from ones made during the period, plain and simple, both are illegal and are just as counterfeit as the others.
nothing separating them except, oh, maybe the definition of the word
Counterfeit: a fraudulent imitation of something else; a forgery. made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud.
Reproduction: a copy of a work of art
This particular cart is quite obviously the latter. Seriously, no one disagrees with you about counterfeits being wrong but this is NOT a counterfeit... by definition.
Your argument is like saying people shouldn't be able to sell reproduced paintings of Starry Night because someone might try to resell it as though it were the original... And anyone who would want to hang a reproduction of starry night in their house without the word REPRO written on it somewhere are just entitled...
Reproduction for label - check. How about software?
I don't understand 80sFreak's question, care to rephrase?
Lots of opinions flying round and lots of passion, it's good to see that everyone cares a lot. We can't always agree on everything and we shouldn't expect to.
Personally I like repros, I like to have a physical cart of a game I play, ideally a CIB copy if I can, but there are times when it's not feasible for a number of reasons. That's why I have some repros there.
Additionally, I like to recase pirates I'm fond of and multicarts. My Rockman 6 in 1 looks much nicer in a genuine blue shell. Maybe in the future my mind will change, but for now I like this hobby effort, I just wish it was done with more care. You see a lot of fugly NES cart designs in NA. So many ugly examples.
I think we're retreading old ground here with a lot of these scripture-like replies, but as I said it shows passion for the hobby and that's no bad thing.
We do have to accept however that people have different views.
I don't think it's fair to deny some people a thing they like, because we ourselves don't like it. Sadly, that's how some of the finest artworks across history were wiped out.
I can't stand those ugly NA carts you see by folks like Atomic Games, but if some people enjoy them who am I to (try and) deny them? It's their world too, their hobby too just a much as mine, that's the case regardless.
I may not agree with it, but I won't try and outlaw it.
That's kind of how I feel here - this is all a part of a free market (yay capitalism) that dictates itself, so let it. You can't stop it anyway so don't get too stressed trying, it'll wear you out.
This is just my opinion mind, not telling anyone what to do in the slightest, nor would I try.
I'm still going to build repros though, still going to love them and still going to keep them to myself and not sell them, that's part of the deal of having them.
I partly let the old thread trail on because I think part of being involved with building repros is accepting the flack they can attract. What's ironic to me, is that when I tried an experiment and showed off a clear repro of an expensive game here recently, nobody even noticed, let alone complained. Why is that?
Post Merge: November 04, 2013, 10:13:48 am
To further this discussion, you'll either love this or hate it then, depending on your take:
http://gamergrafx.com/products/3509939-little-samson
I don't like reproductions because they are illegal and yet not enforced.. It masks how broken our copyright system is.. If everyone were actually forced to follow copyright law as it is right now, it wouldn't last 5 seconds.. As it stands, they get away with horrible laws and are allowed to pick and choose when to enforce them so that only a few people get shafted and the masses don't see the problem.
I hate these repro labels too, LET. In addition to being used to better conceal counterfeit copies like the game that started this thread, these can also be used to patch up damaged original labels. And the better these get, the harder they'll be to distinguish from originals (if they're not already there). I think there's a great disservice to the historical preservation aspects of this hobby in making things like this. At the point that someone like me who cares has to break out a microscope and look for the differences between a 20-year old NES label and a repro made last week, this really does make the hobby that much less fun. And there will absolutely be people buying copies with shredded labels, replacing them with these fakes, and then selling them as minty originals. (And it's going to potentially take more than a security bit screwdriver for anyone to tell the difference.)
Quote from: nerdynebraskan on November 08, 2013, 07:57:36 pm
I hate these repro labels too, LET. In addition to being used to better conceal counterfeit copies like the game that started this thread, these can also be used to patch up damaged original labels. And the better these get, the harder they'll be to distinguish from originals (if they're not already there). I think there's a great disservice to the historical preservation aspects of this hobby in making things like this. At the point that someone like me who cares has to break out a microscope and look for the differences between a 20-year old NES label and a repro made last week, this really does make the hobby that much less fun. And there will absolutely be people buying copies with shredded labels, replacing them with these fakes, and then selling them as minty originals. (And it's going to potentially take more than a security bit screwdriver for anyone to tell the difference.)
I feel the same way on these fake repro labels. I am glad to see that these are for the NES though, and not the Famicom. I hope that if enough of this stuff gets turned out on the NES side of things, eventually many of the "pro repro" folks will alter their views (like I had mine altered), and then perhaps larger actions will be taken to squash this stuff. At the current state, too many people want these things, so those of us who care about the originals seem to be in the minority, or at least that is how it feels.
I think thats pretty spot on, the people that dislike them are the minority, so they continue on.
People wouldn't be able to make them if the market wasn't there of course.
Did you guys see that story where the family were making art fakes and had global experts fooled?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1559132/Family-sells-fake-Egyptian-statue-for-400000.html
The time will come when you have to bust out a magnifying glass for sure.
Myself, I'm not super fussed as if a copy can be better than it's source, sometimes I like that. There's a company in England that makes Ferrarri F40s, with upgraded parts and better spec than they originally had.
They're not genuine, but for anyone wanting to have an F40, they can consider having an improved version of the original, for much less money than an original. Not genuine, but exceeding the goals of the original car. Someone that wanted to put one in a museum would shudder at the thought, but go back 25 years and ask someone which version they'd prefer and they may well surprise you.
To me, that sums up the difference in viewpoint here - people that prioritise preservation really hate these repros as they cause great concern. In contrast, people that just want to play great games and immerse themselves in that world like what repros can offer.
The more popular retro gaming becomes the bigger the repro scene will become. Demand is already outstripping supply of much loved games. Best thing you can do is be prepared as best you can.
I'm not so sure that the disapproval of these knockoff labels is in the minority. Making counterfeit copies of games already released in your region is a serious taboo, for both repro sellers and major collectors. This kind of thing continues because there are people buying them, and the copyright violations are minor enough that it's difficult to involve law enforcement (if that's even something we wanted to do). Honestly, I'd doubt Taito cares enough about Little Samson today to do anything about a small vendor selling its art.
These labels are probably a bigger issue when it comes to upgrading existing copies. There is serious financial incentive here: a reseller could pick up a trashed Samson for a fraction of the going rate on a minty copy, add a knockoff label and possibly a shell-swap, and resell it as a minty copy for hundreds of dollars worth of profit.
And fcgamer, the only reason this is happening in the NES/SNES scene predominantly is that this is where most collectors are spending crazy amounts of money. Profit potential on Japanese versions of most of these games simply isn't that great. But this kind of fraud could potentially drive people out of the scene, or at least curb their spending. (This certainly gives me one less reason to ever drop $500 on a Little Samson, even though it's the only licensed NTSC NES game I still want.) Prices could stagnate, or fall.
Prices have risen in the FC collecting scene, and a lot of the buyers have been Americans importing cheaper versions of NES games. If the NES scene ever got so tainted as to inspire widespread doubts, game collectors could take refuge in Famicom collecting. If the prices rose enough, it would invite fraudsters to flood here next.
Counterfeiting has severely damaged many other hobbies, especially from the financial perspective. Old sports cards, for instance, are often sold at the same price as they did 30 years ago unless they've been "graded." (That is to say, many collectors in that scene are now only buying cards that have been put under a professional's microscope and verified to be original.) Reprints, both official and counterfeit, do have some nostalgic value: you can still admire the card's vintage photography, and the corny humor on the back. But there's not nearly the same kind of demand there, because it's not a real piece of history. And the ability to actually hold something from a different age is a major appeal to collectors of any variety.
LET is right that counterfeiting will only continue to grow as long as there's money to be made in a thriving hobby, but we should also realize that these bootlegs can eventually destroy the hobby as well. Whether we collect out of a sense of history, or because it's an investment that we can still play with, counterfeits inevitably cancel both of those motivations. I'm not claiming to have solutions to these problems, but I will start by shunning anyone flooding my hobby with counterfeit carts or labels. If we keep these taboo, at least we make it a little harder for these guys to sell them and pollute our pool of vintage games.
Square Enix own Taito, so Little Samson would be a Square Enix game then, cool :)
Famicom collecting is already prone to fraud I'd say. I still don't think you can do anything about it though, it's already way worse than it was one year ago. Just hurry to get what you want while you can.
I collect hardware mostly, so maybe that's why I'm less fussed. You can't convincingly repro a Titler. I started my collection as an investment, but it's become mroe of a fun hobby because I actually like playing the games.
I like to enjoy these products as they were meant to be enjoyed. That is the hobby (not building a museum) for most.
That's why you won't be able to prevent it - because people buying repros are peopel that want to play the games for what they are without buying an expensive original.
You may not like it, but it's going to get very hard for you if you don't find a way around it.
So did Yakuza actually deliver anything to you? Cause he stole my money. I know this is old but this guy needs to called out on his BS,
I don't remember this thread being about Yakuza - can you avoid scattershotting Yakuza complaints on all the threads. If you have a complaint we'll look into it - but the solution is not to spam multiple threads. Sometimes things can get lost in the post, sometimes neighbours hold on to a package, and sometimes there are just dodgy sellers - but we need to know more to help.
I hope this isn't too bad of thread necro. This can be a touchy subject.
My own take on it: If a game wasn't released in my region, then I have no reservations over a reproduction cart. If a game never made it past prototype stage, I am ok with a reproduction cart (because I can see how someone would want to try it on real hardware, but not have the pockets to fund, or the luck to find the real thing). If a game needs translation, I am also ok with this. Homebrews, hacks that are basically different games etc. fall into the "ok" category for me too.
I don't have many reservations over pirate carts either. They are all over the place, and plenty of folks on here have them. Hurting the hobby? Some folks collect the pirate stuff, hardware, and games. It's kind of relative to your interests. Sometimes, if a game is stupid rare, or the prices gone insane, I can see how people would make this move. I've done it. Some of the unofficial games are ports, goofy originals...stuff you would not see otherwise.
Counterfeit is a different issue in itself. This is something that is not authentic, that is being passed off as such. I have one game that I would consider to be counterfeit. It's a reproduction of Airball by Tengen. A game that wasn't released. The person who made it/sold it went through some effort on it. It's in a plain black Tengen cart shell, with no label, and the label area is perfectly clean of any adhesive residue (as far as I can see anyway). At the time, and with available information, it was pretty convincing. But, it was also at a point where convincing fakes were juuuust starting to be seen on market. I bid accordingly, because I assumed that it wasn't authentic (always safer that way if unsure). When I got it, I cracked it open. Sure enough, on the inside, there is a sticker on the ROM chip that said "ROM dumped by xxxx 2000." It's been a while since I opened it, so I cannot remember the user name/email that was on the sticker. Nowhere in the auction did it say that it was a repro, and I do not even know if the seller was the creator. Seller name, and ROM dumper name didn't match, I remember that; that is easy enough to ensure though.
In the case of something like say "Earthbound Zero" where prototypes exist... the current run of repros would be hard to confuse as real I think. The couple of real ones I had seen were in grey NES shells, with plain white labels on them, with I want to say typed text stating what it is. Now, I have seen repros in that style where the seller clearly stated that it was a reproduction. I don't see much issue with this, because if a person wanted something as close to the proto itself for collection, or display... this would be the way to go. I have also seen repros of rather rare NES titles that had "Reproduction" clearly on their front label. Probably to prevent it being sold as authentic either through intentional misleading, or through incomplete information down the road.
As a whole though, I don't have much issue with it. Prices could stand to come down across the board on old game stuff, and some of the later life releases for the system are great, yet hard to come by. It shouldn't kill your wallet to play a 25+ year old game. However, I also a bit of an idealist, so I assume full disclosure... but understand not everyone is that honest.