Ok, so I'm thinking of finally breaking down and buying myself a Gimmick! cart with some of my tax return. But I've gotten a bit paranoid, given the increase in counterfeiting of retro Nintendo carts. Unfortunately, opening a Gimmick! is a little trickier than opening an NES rare, and I'd be really nervous about breaking the tabs if I tried to open it. But is that what I'd have to do to be sure?
I guess some things I've read suggest that it may be enough just to hear the extra sound when I plug it in, but I've also seen people making bootlegs with the extra sound channels. How many of the fakes being sold have the enhanced sound?
I hate counterfeiters...
Well, if you buy it from eBay or with paypal payment you will have buyer protection...
I don't think counterfeit is that common however. Buy from a reputable seller/collector and it shouldn't be a problem. The original cart is still far more common than a counterfeit, and there are still few counterfeiters.
Making a counterfeit with enhanced sound isn't too difficult, because Gremlins 2 isn't that expensive.
But I don't seriously think counterfeiters would care about the extra sound.
You can also look around the label of the cart. Most original carts are discolored around the edges and I don't think a counterfeiter would be able to achieve that (or care). See here for example
(http://www.glitterberri.com/content/developer_interviews/gimmick/gimmick.jpg)
(http://atariusa.com/flashback/albums/21st%20Jan%202011%20Additions/Loose%20FC%20Carts/normal_IMG_7936.JPG)
(http://www.treasurenavi.com/m-auction/famicom/gimmick3.jpg)
I hope you are not referring to repro makers as 'counterfeiters'...
I would get an original cart if you have enough. I have pirates and repros of Gimmick and still really want a legit one. It's actually not as easy as it sounds to make a repro with the enhanced sound, you'll need a rare 5B chip and even then it can sound a bit different. Best to grab the real cartridge.
So I would follow FredJ's advice, or set yourself a budget amount and see if one of the expats here can help you find one. They know exactly what to look for and it'll be commission well spent.
Are you looking for loose or CIB? CIBs are going for double what loose carts are and more in most cases.
I personally wouldn't buy one without seeing the insides first. I'll admit that that is a bit unreasonable, though.
I hear ya, Joe. I would certainly be more eager to throw down the cash on one that I could see the insides of first. But a lot of even well-meaning sellers aren't going to want to risk that plastic being brittle and snapping in the attempt. That's a lot of value to be potentially lost.
@ Fred
Yeah, I've considered offering on one that's on Ebay right now. But I'm just not confident in my abilities to open one of these without breaking the case, so I'd have a hard time proving if it was a fake. And yeah, I am concerned about people making them with Sunsoft donors and restoring the added sound channels.
@ LET
Reproductions are a gray area, both ethically and legally. Anyone who wants to take a game that never got released, and put that ROM back into an original shell and give us a chance to enjoy it as it was meant to be played is doing a wonderful service for our community. Even the NTSC/NES Mr. Gimmick repros may qualify for that. And I'd be ok with adding goofy pirate stuff here, as it offers a dirt-cheap way of playing what are often pretty rare games on original hardware (while making no effort to pass itself off as original to scam a collector).
Then there was that Volk guy who used the schematics provided here by Pit, and he's now selling counterfeit Gimmicks with identical labels on Ebay. (And he's trying to get away with it by advertising them as "reproductions.") I am understandably concerned about people buying his bootlegs and trying to resell them as legit. I know I don't want to drop $200 on a cart just to get one of his modern fakes.
And yes, I am quite set on getting an original at this point. I want to be able to play the full game (which I understand is not even possible on my Pipe V pirate version), I want the enhanced sound, and I don't want my cart to die on me in ten years when a bunch of cheap repro parts start failing inside of a counterfeit cart. And I'm prepared to spend the money, as long as I'm confident I'm not going to get screwed by one of the vultures trying to get a piece of the cash cow that our hobby has become.
I don't want to get into arguing but repro are counterfeit items for certain since no money is given to the publisher/developper.
Stay on topic, guys. This is a thread about buying Gimmick!, not a thread about the merits/faults of repros.
Quote from: UglyJoe on March 16, 2014, 02:09:42 pm
Stay on topic, guys. This is a thread about buying Gimmick!, not a thread about the merits/faults of repros.
The way people white knight about repro's around here is crazy. It seems like certain people think repro makers should be beheaded and their heads put on pikes as a warning to others.
I wouldn't mind a Pirate Cart
Quote from: nerdynebraskan on March 16, 2014, 12:16:36 pm
I'm just not confident in my abilities to open one of these without breaking the case, so I'd have a hard time proving if it was a fake.
You can practice at opening cheap loose carts first. I have yet to break a tab using the quick-grip method, but I'm not sure how many times a cartridge may be opened before it breaks. Some carts are brittle and some carts are more rubbery-like.
Quote from: MarioMania on March 16, 2014, 07:52:35 pm
I wouldn't mind a Pirate Cart
The problem is that great part of the pirates have some cheat enabled.
My pirate Gimmick!, labeled "PIPE V" for example starts with 30 lives.
I don't like it.
Yeah I don't see the point in these "trained" games.
I have the Pipe V pirate too, but haven't played it too much, as the music sounds so horrible.
It does on real hardware - sounded fine on my clone.
Quote from: fcgamer on March 24, 2014, 03:49:00 am
I have the Pipe V pirate too, but haven't played it too much, as the music sounds so horrible.
Mine too. Maybe due to the absence of Sunsoft's special sound chip.
Quote from: L___E___T on March 24, 2014, 06:17:37 am
It does on real hardware - sounded fine on my clone.
Really?! :blinky:
I'm gonna check this out! :gamer:
Quote from: MrNorbert on March 24, 2014, 10:29:17 am
the JAP version of Gimmick has a copy protection, so if you go to Level 7, you will get BLACK HOLE.
Does this mean that upon entering Level 7, the screen just goes black and the game freezes, or that there's an actual black hole that sucks Yumetaro in and it's Game Over? 'cause the latter would be awesome.
Quote from: Profeta Yoshitake on March 24, 2014, 07:00:00 am
Quote from: fcgamer on March 24, 2014, 03:49:00 am
I have the Pipe V pirate too, but haven't played it too much, as the music sounds so horrible.
Mine too. Maybe due to the absence of Sunsoft's special sound chip.
Quote from: L___E___T on March 24, 2014, 06:17:37 am
It does on real hardware - sounded fine on my clone.
Really?! :blinky:
I'm gonna check this out! :gamer:
Cool, I need to check this out too.
How much does the Repro Cart go for?
Well, I broke down and did it. I just dropped a chunk of change and a Gimmick showed up in the mail for me today. Usually, something like this would be grounds for bragging in the Finds thread, but I'm still paranoid about this. I figured I'd post some photos and give a little description and see what y'all think about it.
There's definitely discoloration on most of the front label, if that's not obvious in the photo. It actually seems like only the edges of the label are the original light-blue. It looks like the glue used may have darkened/yellowed the majority of the label by a couple of shades.
Their might be a possibility that is a counterfeit, someone has been selling them on eBay recently. Did you buy yours there?
The only way to be 100% sure is to open the cart and look at the board and chips.
Yes, I did buy it on Ebay. Do you know more about who's been selling counterfeits there, FamilyMan?
And yeah, I'd like to open it up and be sure, muckyfingers. But I'm not sure how much I trust myself to do that without damaging the case. I tried one method on a Dragon Quest IV I had lying around, and I broke its clips.
Quote from: FamilyMan on March 07, 2015, 07:18:14 pm
Their might be a possibility that is a counterfeit, someone has been selling them on eBay recently. Did you buy yours there?
I am interested in knowing about this too. Do you know their ebay name?
Quote from: nerdynebraskan on March 07, 2015, 09:47:41 pm
Yes, I did buy it on Ebay. Do you know more about who's been selling counterfeits there, FamilyMan?
And yeah, I'd like to open it up and be sure, muckyfingers. But I'm not sure how much I trust myself to do that without damaging the case. I tried one method on a Dragon Quest IV I had lying around, and I broke its clips.
I just muscle the carts open one side at a time with patience, only cos I'm too cheap to buy a clamp from Lowe's to use this method.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgCiAOmgeFc
Which method did you do when you broke the DQ IV cart? I never failed with the quick-clamp method but you have to be careful and not be impatient. If the plastic is already too bristle it can't be helped.
There have been a few instances, in recent memory, extrarare_gameshop has sold two or three into the market. Another instance someone sold 2 gimmicks as a lot and claimed "I will not be responsible if these are fakes, examine the picture and bid at your own risk". Obviously, whoever the winner of this auction was or is going to reintroduce that extra copy into the market to recoup the costs. I believe the market is getting overrun with fakes as the price of gimmick carts alone are well worth-while for reproducers. I believe a good method to avoid fakes is to seek out an old decrepit copy of gimmick, the prevention for fallacy is still possible however.
The problem is not reproductions today, it is when those reproductions change hands and honesty becomes a gray area tomorrow.
Also, I cannot recommend opening famicom carts. I have opened over 100 and you always have ones that the tabs snap no matter what. Age and plastic are two things that do not get along.
I grabbed my Gimmick sometime last year, maybe during the summer, from a longtime Famicom collector. I got an okay price on it, imo, though not a steal; however, the one thing I did get was some peace of mind that I wasn't getting scammed with a fake.
Quote from: nerdynebraskan on March 07, 2015, 09:47:41 pm
Yes, I did buy it on Ebay. Do you know more about who's been selling counterfeits there, FamilyMan?
And yeah, I'd like to open it up and be sure, muckyfingers. But I'm not sure how much I trust myself to do that without damaging the case. I tried one method on a Dragon Quest IV I had lying around, and I broke its clips.
You should check weight on digital scales with 0.01gr accuracy and ask someone, who has original cart to do the same.
It looks original to me.
Quick and easy test - does it have the extra sound? If no = fake, if yes - check the pins - any cuts in the plastic near the pins with visible wires and solder mean it is a repro.
I don't think you have anything to worry about, but upload a pic of the pins and bottom of the cart (in good light) for a quick answer.
Repros are easy to spot if it has been rewired for the extra sound.
The label(s) look legit from these images though, so don't stress. If it's fake, you can file a return and eBay and Paypal will have you covered, no ifs or buts.
Here's my cart, which senseiman sold me in 2011 or 2012. Hope it's helpful to you, nerdynebraskan! Also, I ended up buying the box only that was up on eBay this week - I made an offer that was considerably lower than his stated price and he accepted. I asked him how he ended up with a box but no game and he said he bought it as junk and the game was, indeed, junk. He has plenty of positive feedback so I'm sure it's legit, but I'll compare it with my Hebereke box when it gets here. Shame there's no manual, but I've never seen a box only go up for sale anywhere, so I decided not to miss it. On the slight possibility a manual or inserts ever show up, I'll grab 'em.
(http://www.invisiblegamer.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/IMG_0883.jpg)
Here's the box image from the listing - now confirmed as a counterfeit.
(http://www.invisiblegamer.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/IMG_0887.png)
Most copies of Gimmick I've seen have that patina to them. I've owned 4-5 different copies. The label will start discoloring around the edges first. The only copy without this I've seen was sold to me as new. Other Sunsoft games of the era have the same issue. That is one tell tale sign to look for. Also, fake copies will probably not have the sharp clear printing on the small text if you can get a decent picture of the game.
nusilver - Would you be will to share what you paid for the case? I have a case I was considering selling too. Instruction manuals are hard to come by unfortunately :(
He wanted $150 - I offered $120, expecting him to haggle, and he didn't. I paid $100 for my cart several years ago, so I think $220 altogether isn't bad, considering. And yeah, I've been hoping to come by a manual for Hebereke for years, but it's never happened, so I assume it's unlikely with Gimmick, as well. It's not the end of the world to me -- I'm glad to have these ones in boxes. :)
Not bad! I paid over $500 for by like new CIB copy about 1-2 years ago. They were super scarce at the time and I might have done better if I waited. It seems that the demand is well know now and sellers in Japan are finding more copies to sell. Now it looks like there are always a few copies up on ebay.
Turns out it was a counterfeit - I have other boxes on hand to compare it to, and the label is several CM too small, the print bleeds, small text is almost illegible, etc. I'm bummed out, but he'll give me a refund (or eBay will extract it from his bank account) and I'll move on with my life. If you're interested in selling your box, and manual, do let me know, but I'm afraid I can't go higher than $150, which is probably unreasonable for you (and I totally understand!)
Sorry to hear it was fake. It seemed too good to be true. I almost bought it a couple of weeks ago, but it didn't make sense that no one was buying at the listed price.
Can you please post the ebay username so I can be careful in future dealings?
Actually, I'm going to edit this post to say "soon" -- will post his username once I've gotten my refund. He provided a return label so I'll be shipping it out tomorrow.
Sorry to hear about your misfortune! I came across the eBay listing as well a short time ago, and almost pounced but the CDN to USD translation is less than favorable at the moment. I had a thought that it could be a reproduction sleeve but then I've never seen an original in person (yet). :(
Let me put it this way: It's pretty obvious to anyone with a brain that video game cover art was not printed on inkjet printers. Text should not bleed or be illegible, regardless of how small it is. Also, there are high res photos of legit ones online, so if you ever suspect you've been sold something... off... it shouldn't be hard to tell. But now that I've seen a fake in person, anyone here is welcome to ask for advice if another legit box ever shows up at random (which I doubt, notwithstanding the person here who may be looking to sell his.)
Quote from: nerdynebraskan on March 07, 2015, 02:50:17 pm
Well, I broke down and did it. I just dropped a chunk of change and a Gimmick showed up in the mail for me today. Usually, something like this would be grounds for bragging in the Finds thread, but I'm still paranoid about this. I figured I'd post some photos and give a little description and see what y'all think about it.
There's definitely discoloration on most of the front label, if that's not obvious in the photo. It actually seems like only the edges of the label are the original light-blue. It looks like the glue used may have darkened/yellowed the majority of the label by a couple of shades.
That looks kind iffy to me. Fair disclaimer, I've never handled a real Gimmick cart but I've handled plenty of NES repros. The things that jump out at me are:
- label is misaligned
- label looks poorly cut, or at least more so than I would expect from a factory cut label
- text in white box looks blue, vs green on on the legit examples I could find
Before you open it I'd check the weight on a small scale. Ceramic eproms will make a repro cart noticeably heavier than a legit one with plastic mask roms.
So, since that box ended up being a fake and who knows when a real one is gonna show up, I ended up just making my own at home. Protip for counterfeiters: *don't* make fake crap that looks worse than what I can print at home with a 10-year-old deskjet printer.
By the way, I had to make the spine for this from scratch using photos (including some of the photos I took of the fake box to show eBay it was a counterfeit), and I won't be uploading the image to the internet -- don't want to contribute to more fakes out there. Just thought you guys might like to see what I made last night. I know the color on Yumetarō is off on the spine, but I'm really happy with how it turned out :)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CA8iTMZWgAAtbz6.jpg:large)
Everybody here knows I'm on a tight budget, I don't have like $200 or more to spend on a hard to find game
I wouldn't mind have a Repro Cart of a High Demand game like The Flintstones on the NES or even DuckTales 2 -- Yes I know I have an EverDrive to do that, But I like holding the Cart in my Hands
If I knew how to Repro Game on my own, I would do that, I won'y sell it. cuz it's fake
I'm still agonizing over this.
I definitely see how mine has the similar discoloration patterns on the one that nusilver has posted pictures of.
I'm pretty sure I have one with expansion audio. There's just so many layers to the soundtrack. I've tried listening to different versions of the soundtrack on YouTube, but it's hard to be sure given the differences in speakers on my TV and my computer (and on the recording devices of those uploading videos of THEIR tvs). I did see a couple of guys running side-by-side comparisons of their Gimmick cart with a Gimmick ROM running off of an Everdrive. I went ahead and tried that too, but I don't have a US prototype ROM for a great side-by-side comparison. The versions of the JP ROM I ran were definitely missing layers on the Everdrive (most sound effects were even missing), and the PAL version definitely seems simpler (although it's also over-clocked on my NTSC console, so comparisons are difficult).
I've added a photo of the pins as LET asked for. I've pried at the bottom a little to look at the PCB a little bit better. I haven't been able to see any wires, but obviously I haven't had a great view.
Also, I appreciate Frank W Doom's careful eye for detail. Yes, my label is slightly crooked, but this seems more common among FC than NES games for whatever reason. Off the top of my head, I'd guess I probably have at least a couple of others that aren't well-centered (and they're cheap games; no reason to think they're bootlegs). And yeah, the label does seem a little rough especially along the left edge. But the edges don't look pristine on nusilver's either, if I'm seeing them well from his picture. The color question is tricky, since the label is already discolored.
I took a look at my FME-7 boards and they are all the same on cartridge connectors. So here is a quick and easy way to tell if your Gimmick is legit or not. Simply turn the cartridge over and look at the connector, if it looks like this in anyway it's a boot/repro. If it only has 1 set of pins jumpered, it's legit.
Click on the picture to expand.
(http://i.imgur.com/h1MWeF8m.jpg) (http://imgur.com/h1MWeF8)
Thanks. I only have one set of "jumpers", so I guess this is a 5B. But there are other 5B Sunsoft carts, right? And those are what get chopped up to make the expansion-audio clones of Gimmick!, right? Would they all have the same pin configuration?
There's only 1 5B board and that's Gimmick!. All others are FME-7 boards that might happen to have a 5B chip. All these FME-7 boards will have 2 jumpers, even if they contain a 5B chip inside.
someone give this guy a medal!
So, nusilver, your Gimmick only has one jumper as well? Can anybody else corroborate this?
Regarding the sound extansion, it is very noticeable if it has or not. I had a bootleg cart (not repro) from China without the sound expansion, and it sounded quite horrible.
Yep, I took a look. Only one jumper on mine. Mine also came from senseiman, who picked it up from a local shop in Fukuoka I believe, so I've never once doubted its authenticity.
Quote from: nerdynebraskan on March 27, 2015, 05:25:39 pm
So, nusilver, your Gimmick only has one jumper as well? Can anybody else corroborate this?
You can also check the PCB scans on bootgod's site, also know that Gimmick! needs pins 45 and 46 separated in order to pass through the extra sound channels. That is why there is only 1 jumper set on Sunsoft 5B boards, the FME-7's have pins 45 and 46 jumpered together because it does not need them separated. Also the reason some FME-7 boards come with 5B chips sometimes is because the 5B chip is backwards compatible with FME-7 games.
Gimmick!
http://bootgod.dyndns.org:7777/profile.php?id=2695
FME-7's (click on each to check the back of the PCBs)
http://bootgod.dyndns.org:7777/search.php?unif=SUNSOFT-FME-7
The Gremlins 2 cart here is a perfect example of an FME-7 board with a Sunsfot 5B chip. It still has 2 jumpers, because it is an FME-7 board.
http://bootgod.dyndns.org:7777/profile.php?id=3805
My Gremlins 2 cart was exactly the same before I turned it into a Gimmick! reproduction. Notice how I had to cut one of the jumpers to separate pins 45 and 46, then add my wires to said pins. Really it's a just called "a trace connecting 2 pins", but labeling it "jumpers" makes it easier to convey the idea.
(http://i.imgur.com/pc9DiIz.jpg) (http://imgur.com/pc9DiIz)
This is awesome. I can finally breathe easy on this. Thank you, muckyfingers.
Quote from: nerdynebraskan on March 28, 2015, 10:39:57 am
This is awesome. I can finally breathe easy on this. Thank you, muckyfingers.
You're welcome, I'm glad I could help.
Quote from: nusilver on March 23, 2015, 10:05:43 am
Turns out it was a counterfeit - I have other boxes on hand to compare it to, and the label is several CM too small, the print bleeds, small text is almost illegible, etc. I'm bummed out, but he'll give me a refund (or eBay will extract it from his bank account) and I'll move on with my life. If you're interested in selling your box, and manual, do let me know, but I'm afraid I can't go higher than $150, which is probably unreasonable for you (and I totally understand!)
The same box is on sale again. Now as a complete set of Gimmick. The label is the same - smaller and with exactly the same color bleed with the same spots.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUPER-RARE-FAMICOM-NINTENDO-GIMMICK-w-box-SUNSOFT-JAPAN-/290899041564?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43baef1d1c (http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUPER-RARE-FAMICOM-NINTENDO-GIMMICK-w-box-SUNSOFT-JAPAN-/290899041564?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43baef1d1c)
That's not actually the same one I bought -- it's slightly larger. I'm also not convinced it's a fake from those photos -- they're pretty low res.
The seller of mine was shisochou, from Lawrence, KS.
So they have the same image file - the discoloration on the backside is identical. The cartridge looks legit thou.
So did i get burned?
(http://i.imgur.com/JczIBo8h.jpg)
Looks like a nice original copy from what I can tell of that picture. Did you buy from a reputable source?
Might want to check the jumpers. From my angle the label looks "too clean."
Could be the camera at as well.
The jumpers are correct
I bought it from yamatoku.
How much was it? :o
Quote from: nusilver on March 25, 2015, 06:54:17 am
So, since that box ended up being a fake and who knows when a real one is gonna show up, I ended up just making my own at home. Protip for counterfeiters: *don't* make fake crap that looks worse than what I can print at home with a 10-year-old deskjet printer.
By the way, I had to make the spine for this from scratch using photos (including some of the photos I took of the fake box to show eBay it was a counterfeit), and I won't be uploading the image to the internet -- don't want to contribute to more fakes out there. Just thought you guys might like to see what I made last night. I know the color on Yumetarō is off on the spine, but I'm really happy with how it turned out :)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CA8iTMZWgAAtbz6.jpg:large)
Could I get the size of that cover art. Have been searching around, but not finding it
Quote from: Hack on October 30, 2016, 05:55:30 am
Could I get the size of that cover art. Have been searching around, but not finding it
It is the standard sunsoft case size it's not unique to gimmick