Lately I've been fixing up another batch of disk systems and found some weird problems, one of them I solved by myself.
The problem I fixed myself was I had a drive that read games perfectly but for some reason would not save whenever I tried to save in game. It would give me error 03. The problem here was that the cable that plugs into the drive unit was seated crooked and perhaps the lead for WRITE wasn't connected. I reseated the cable after I noticed it and worked great after that.
Now, I have one disk system that does read disks except it has trouble reading side B's of games and gives me error 27 and doesn't save when I try and save in game and then gives me error 40 for that. I have been doing many spindle adjustments and motor speed adjustments and yet side B of Zelda won't load even though it loads in another disk system.
I've put this drive aside and am working on some other ones for now. Should I just keep making adjustment after adjustment? I've been working for hours on the same drive... I'm really getting frustrated with all the trial and error involved in the process >:(
Yes it is very frustrating. I recently had a drive that would just give me errors, and it was like feeling "I'm almost there"... but after 1-2 hours I gave up and took another.
I don't think that it has to do with calibration. Maybe a defective chip like some people here seem to have, or a line that is wrong on the circuit board, corrision somewhere, etc. I once had a very difficult FDS and I replaced the circuit board on it (simple even for me) and it worked perfectly.
Quotegames
QuoteZelda
Anything else on the list?
Quote from: fredJ on June 09, 2014, 10:39:56 am
I don't think that it has to do with calibration.
There's actually one step in the calibration process that I've seen covered nowhere in the english guides available here an there. Without this step, some drives, especially early ones, tend to keep giving errors even when the spindle is seated properly.
Basically, when putting back the gears together, the upper gear (the one with the metal plate) has to be properly aligned with the lower gear (the one with the black hole in it), and the whole assembly has to be put back into the drive in a certain position (aligned with the hole in the traingle bracket some drives have).
When I have a little spare time on my hands, I'll do a comprehensive guide and post it here.
I've repaired quite a bunch of drives, and even the most stubborn ones work perfectly when this step is properly done.
Ah thanks, I was thinking it had to do with the positioning of the gears for the other ones I'm fixing. For the one that reads but throws errors, I'm going to try resoldering one part of the board that looks a little dull.
Quote from: zmaster18 on June 09, 2014, 06:15:28 pm
Ah thanks, I was thinking it had to do with the positioning of the gears for the other ones I'm fixing.
Do not forget, it must be done at proper phase of the moon ::) Also add some lubricants ::)
Look, seriously, think about how whole thing working. There is no "index" hole, so disk just spinning. Excentric disk move head unit here and there and there is a switch, which remind BIOS to start reading. That's all.
Quote from: oare on June 09, 2014, 05:31:05 pm
Quote from: fredJ on June 09, 2014, 10:39:56 am
I don't think that it has to do with calibration.
There's actually one step in the calibration process that I've seen covered nowhere in the english guides available here an there. Without this step, some drives, especially early ones, tend to keep giving errors even when the spindle is seated properly.
Basically, when putting back the gears together, the upper gear (the one with the metal plate) has to be properly aligned with the lower gear (the one with the black hole in it), and the whole assembly has to be put back into the drive in a certain position (aligned with the hole in the traingle bracket some drives have).
When I have a little spare time on my hands, I'll do a comprehensive guide and post it here.
I've repaired quite a bunch of drives, and even the most stubborn ones work perfectly when this step is properly done.
I can't see how there can be more than one way of placing the gears....
The gear with the metal plate is just a gear, identical on all sides. It doesn't have a start, finish or specifics to it.
Whoa, that's some pretty harsh comments here.
I just wanted to help.
The metal plate is not identical on all sides, it serves as a guide for the head position.
If the alignment is properly done, it is easy to make all drives work in one shot, even the earlier models. That's all.
There are actually plenty of physical markers on the drive assembly to indicate how things are supposed to be put together.
But if you guys aren't interested, I won't make that guide.
It's not like I'm going to make money out of it or anything anyways.
Quote from: oare on June 10, 2014, 12:57:50 pm
Whoa, that's some pretty harsh comments here.
I just wanted to help.
The metal plate is not identical on all sides, it serves as a guide for the head position.
If the alignment is properly done, it is easy to make all drives work in one shot, even the earlier models. That's all.
There are actually plenty of physical markers on the drive assembly to indicate how things are supposed to be put together.
But if you guys aren't interested, I won't make that guide.
It's not like I'm going to make money out of it or anything anyways.
Hey man, there's no one being offensive in here. We're all interested in what you have to say about the gears. I totally believe everything you said and will be trying to align the gears tonight and taking your advice into consideration.
Quote from: fredJ on June 10, 2014, 05:17:22 amI can't see how there can be more than one way of placing the gears....
The gear with the metal plate is just a gear, identical on all sides. It doesn't have a start, finish or specifics to it.
SUDDENLY agreed 100% ::)
QuoteThe metal plate is not identical on all sides, it serves as a guide for the head position.
so what? There is a switch, if you noticed, which let BIOS know, when to start reading(if this switch is not working, you will see LOADING... forever, but that is another story).
Take calibrated drive, unscrew circuit board from it, screw it back... most ikely your drive will stop reading disks. Why? You shifted little bit switch, so head lost the track.
Quote from: 80sFREAK on June 10, 2014, 06:05:51 pm
Quote from: fredJ on June 10, 2014, 05:17:22 amI can't see how there can be more than one way of placing the gears....
The gear with the metal plate is just a gear, identical on all sides. It doesn't have a start, finish or specifics to it.
SUDDENLY agreed 100% ::)
In a nutshell:
The lower gear, which controls the spindle hub movement, moves together with the upper gear, which controls the head position.
So after a given number of rotations, the relative positions of the spindle hub and the head will always be the same.
On the spindle hub, there is a little piece of metal that latches into a hole on the disks.
So the position of the magnetic disk is also always relative to the position of the head.
The FDS accesses data in a sequential manner, so it requires the head to point to a very specific area of the magnetic disk at the beginning of its read sequence.
If the spindle hub is not initially properly positioned relatively to the head, the head will point to a wrong place on the disk. Which will result in errors.
This explains why, when the initial alignment procedure hasn't been done correctly, people have to tediously tinker with the spindle hub position.
What they are actually doing is blindly trying to orientate it so that it is properly positioned relatively to the head.
okay, you are referring to these two wheels?
(http://www.famicomdisksystem.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/triangle_removed1.gif)
I thought you were referring to the gear that is not in the picture.
I don't remove the two wheels in picture, so I suppose you could be right about their calibration. But this would indicate that trial and error of the spindle hub would fix the problem even if it takes time, no?
Quote from: fredJ on June 11, 2014, 07:05:26 am
But this would indicate that trial and error of the spindle hub would fix the problem even if it takes time, no?
It should, but the margin of error is quite narrow so it's easier to just sit the gears properly from the start.
Another thing that might need tinkering with is the motor speed. It is easy to do since it only requires a small flat screwdriver, and is readily accessible.
I've just bought another FDS on auctions, so I'll make the repairing guide during the week-end.
Wow thanks a lot, that is very much appreciated! I'm looking forward to it! :)
Quote from: oare on June 11, 2014, 01:55:05 pm
I've just bought another FDS on auctions, so I'll make the repairing guide during the week-end.
I repaired my FDS seemingly by chance and would like to learn more about doing it properly, have you considered making this again?
Hello everyone,
I apologize for the delay, life got in the way.
I'm almost done writing the guide, it should be up tomorrow.
So, here goes.
It's going to be long. I hope it'll be helpful.
====
First and foremost:
This guide probably wouldn't exist without the following video:
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm5256429
It's the first one in a series that's accessible with a Niconico account. They're extremely thorough, and the author is a very well-spoken person.
If you have a good command of Japanese, I highly suggest you watched them.
All props go to this guy.
====
Step 1:
Remove the 6 screws that hold the top part of the Famicom Disk System.
(http://i58.tinypic.com/124tp43.jpg)
Step 2:
Remove the 4 screws holding the disk drive (indicated by the red circles, the photo isn't very good, sorry.)
You should be able to remove the drive.
However, oftentimes, the old rubber below the screws will have gotten sticky and the drive seemingly won't budge. Just keep pulling straight upwards, and it should eventually come off.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/2w2ehqt.jpg)
Step 3:
Turn the drive upside down.
Remove the three screws indicated by the red circles.
The last fourth screw is attached to the motherboard, and will be removed later.
The plate should come off easily.
(http://i60.tinypic.com/6dv8ra.jpg)
Step 4:
Unscrew the front panel and remove it.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/33kqgpz.jpg)
Step 5:
Remove the 3 springs that retain the plastic disk holder (pictures "a" and "b"). I suggest using a pair of small tweezers, it'll make your life a lot easier.
Remove the disk holder by pulling straight upwards, while at the same time gently pressing the yellow eject button (which appears to the right on picture 5c).
Be careful not to push the eject button too far, otherwise the disk holder will lock in. In case it happens, just unlock the disk holder by pushing inwards the white plastic lock located next to the motor.
5a
(http://i58.tinypic.com/no8phz.jpg)
5b
(http://i62.tinypic.com/11r6t81.jpg)
5c
(http://i60.tinypic.com/2rndlvq.jpg)
Post Merge: June 30, 2014, 05:50:49 pm
Step 6:
While you're at it, take a few seconds to clean up the drive's head with a q-tip and some dehydrated ethanol.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/20zwks1.jpg)
Step 7:
Remove the 4 screws that hold the motherboard.
Pay attention to the shape of the screws: the upper-left one (yellow circle) is connected to GND and has an indented metal washer underneath.
The red ones are both identical.
The purple one (bottom-right on the picture) requires a smaller driver head and has a smaller diameter.
On this picture, you can also see the original, molten drive belt. It is rolled-up onto the bottom-left golden pulley.
In many cases, it won't be that cleanly rolled-up. It'll be all over the place.
Remove every single bit of it and clean with ethanol and a q-tip until there's no trace of black rubber left anywhere.
(http://i61.tinypic.com/desar5.jpg)
Step 8:
Lift the motherboard.
In order to lift it, you'll need to free the cable indicated with the arrow from it's hook. Just loosen the hook and it should unlatch easily.
Oftentimes, you'll find a strip of black rubber stuck onto the motherboard. This belongs to the belt. Remove it and clean with ethanol.
Then remove the three screws of the gear assembly.
(http://i62.tinypic.com/2wguecy.jpg)
Post Merge: June 30, 2014, 05:53:50 pm
Step 9:
Turn the drive around. Remove the spindle hub with a small hex wrench. Be careful not to lose the washer that's sandwiched underneath the spindle hub.
9a
(http://i59.tinypic.com/sgtjjp.jpg)
9b
(http://i62.tinypic.com/33cauqg.jpg)
Step 10:
Remove the gear assembly and carefully disassemble it.
You should have three gears:
- lower (black with a white top, in the yellow circle)
- middle (white, in the green circle), which remains attached to the triangle bracket.
- upper (the one that has a thin, unevenly shaped metallic plate attached to it, in the red circle).
The "upper" gear is the one that moves the drive's head. It is the one that usually causes problems.
Notice the two holes on the plate in the blue circles. We'll call the left one "the outer hole" and the right one "the inner hole".
(http://i60.tinypic.com/x1klz6.jpg)
Post Merge: June 30, 2014, 06:00:01 pm
Step 11:
Now's the time to replace the belt.
I use Mobilon bands, they're available in the right size and sturdy enough. But I don't know if they exist outside of Japan.
Some people just make a belt themselves with two strips of electrical tape glued together (use two strips of about 24cm in length (~10 inches), glued to each other).
Whatever suits you.
The belt diameter should be 70mm. Ideally, its width should be 4mm for a thickness of 0.4mm. The ones I'm using are 3mm and 0.3mm respectively, but they work fine.
11a
(http://i61.tinypic.com/a2drbo.jpg)
NOW IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART.
Place the belt onto the lower gear. (picture "b")
Pull it around the triangle bracket's leg that goes towards the motherboard (see the arrow on picture "c").
Then, align the lower gear so that the black rectangular (or round) hole falls at around the same position as shown in the picture.
On later drives, there' a guiding hole added to the bracket, so finding the right angle is much easier (picture "c_2").
Now, this is crucial: make sure that the "outer hole" (see step 10) on the metal plate of the upper gear is properly aligned with the black hole of the lower gear.
Both need to be perfectly in-line with each other as shown in pictures "c_2" and "d".
Why is this important?
See the explanation below.
11b
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2ic6xya.jpg)
11c
(http://i61.tinypic.com/2z4mycg.jpg)
11c_2
(http://i60.tinypic.com/2mgtn9h.jpg)
11d
(http://i59.tinypic.com/1zgddv8.jpg)
Post Merge: June 30, 2014, 06:03:14 pm
Step 12:
Put back the gear assembly, making sure the holes are still properly aligned.
While you put the assembly back, you'll need to push the head all the way towards the front of the drive, otherwise the assembly won't fit.
Once the assembly is back in, release the head. It should fall perfectly flat onto the upper gear's metal plate, as shown in the picture (yellow circle).
Pull the belt all the way down to the motor pulley.
Again, make sure the holes are still properly aligned.
(don't pay attention to the motherboard in the picture, it shouldn't be there yet.)
(http://i60.tinypic.com/16c8fnp.jpg)
Step 13:
In order to make sure the holes are in the right position, fit the drive's bottom plate back on. If the black hole of the lower gear shows perfectly centered through the hole indicated by the red circle, you're good to go. Screw everything back together - except for the plate, since you need to access the gears in step 14.
If the black hole isn't perfectly centered, go back to step 11.
(On later drives (picture "c_2", step 10), things should be perfectly aligned on your first try, as the hole in the triangle bracket is aligned with the one on the plate.)
(http://i60.tinypic.com/2s9rm7n.jpg)
Post Merge: June 30, 2014, 06:09:40 pm
Step 14:
Once the head assembly is screwed back together, turn the drive around.
It's time to align the spindle hub.
Looking from the top, turn the lower gear clockwise with your fingers in order to make the head move.
At one point, you'll hear a "click" and the head will fall quickly all the way to the back of the drive.
Leave everything in that position.
An easy visual clue for the "click" point is the screw that's located next to the head (the one that appears on top in the picture, refer to the red line in pic 14a).
The "click" happens just after you reach that screw.
Another good visual clue is the hole marked by the red circle on picture "14b". The half-circle hole on the upper part of the drive should align perfectly with the "inner hole" of the upper gear (see pic in step 10).
14a
(http://i62.tinypic.com/2hhoyfl.jpg)
14b
(http://i61.tinypic.com/dcfzv9.jpg)
IMPORTANT:
If you miss the "click", you might be tempted to keep turning the gears clockwise until the head slowly crawls back up to position. DO NOT do it, otherwise you'll screw up the alignment.
Rather, just push the head gently towards the front of the drive, and turn the gears counter-clockwise about 30 to 45 degrees.
The head will get back up to a point located before the "click".
Then start turning again clockwise until the "click" occurs.
If you miss it again, rinse and repeat.
Once you've reached the desired position: fit the spindle hub and screw it onto the axle so that its flat side is perfectly perpendicular to the head (refer to the red lines in picture 14c).
14c
(http://i59.tinypic.com/m7uk5f.jpg)
Step 15:
Put everything back together, starting with the motherboard.
Now, try a game. If everything's properly aligned, it should work on your first try.
Use a game that has no saving feature.
The reason why it's preferable to use a game with no saving feature is that games disks that contain saves written with an improperly calibrated drive may not work (due to the save file being written on side A of the disk).
15a
(http://i58.tinypic.com/9vcbjd.jpg)
15b
(http://i60.tinypic.com/alhkqb.jpg)
Post Merge: June 30, 2014, 06:13:19 pm
====
Why is calibrating important?
The FDS drive reads data in a sequential manner. Which means it reads the whole disk and transmits everything it reads "as is" to the RAM adapter every time it goes through a reading sequence.
It has no ability to seek for relevant data. Relevant data needs to be fed to it from the get-go.
Some people compare it to a tape drive, which is a fairly accurate description.
Imagine a tape drive with data on it (as in early computers, for example): it reads data sequentially, from the beginning of the tape to its end. If you try to read the tape from anything but the very beginning, you'll get an error.
Similarly, if somehow the tape reader head were to be dislodged form its position and shifted to the right or left, you'd get errors even if you rewound the tape properly.
With the FDS, the situation is the same.
The lower gear is controlled by the motor; when the motor spins, the pulley makes the lower gear spin. When the lower gear spins, it moves both the spindle hub and the upper gear, which in turn moves the drive's head.
On the spindle hub, there is a little metal piece (I've seen it called "guiding pin" in some documentation) that latches onto a specific part of the disk (the "guiding hole").
Therefore, after a given number of rotations of the motor, both the disk and the drive's head will always be in a certain, precise position.
In order to read disks properly, the head needs to point to the right portion of a disk when it starts its reading sequence, like a rewound tape points to the beginning of its tape.
Otherwise, since the drive is unable to seek for relevant data on its own, it'll spit errors.
====
Post Merge: June 30, 2014, 06:15:09 pm
I aligned everything properly, but it still doesn't work!
Three case scenarios.
Case one: the drive's motor is getting old. It's old stuff. It happens. Luckily, there's a little screw that you can move in order to fix things. See picture "appendix_1" for the location of the screw.
Take a small flat screwdriver, and turn it counter-clockwise in small increments in order to increase rotating speed.
appendix_1
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2h6ghz9.jpg)
Case two: The drive's been tinkered with. There are plenty of guides on the Internet, but unfortunately, most of them only cover the spindle hub part of the repairing process. Some do also include exotic (and sometimes potentially harmful) additional steps. Because of this, a few disks have save data on them that was wrongly written.
The good news is that oftentimes, it is just a matter of reading speed. So it is usually possible to read "bad" disks by simply adjusting the reading speed until it matches the speed of the drive on which the saves were made.
It is even possible to "restore" wrong disks by doing a few saves while turning the motor screw in very small increments just before you save- until you reach your drive's original speed. But do it at your own risks.
The bad news, now, is that there are disks on which saves were written after a bunch of forbidden things were tinkered with. Like the head screws, for example. Restoring those disks would take forever. I suggest you just build yourself an FDSLoadr, or better yet, an FDSLoaderSaver (http://kitahei88.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-111.html), and rewrite the disks altogether.
Case three: it's just a bad disk.
I have only ever seen one as of today, and it was physically damaged. But you never know.
Thanks. Nice with a guide that explains how things work for once.
Considering I have restored a bunch of these , I'm not sure if it has to be this complicated, but okay. I'll have to test some drives and get back.
A question is if a badly written disk would work on a properly calibrated disk system. Shouldn't a perfectly calibrated disk system read rewritten disks too? But I'll have to do some testing myself.
Quote from: fredJ on July 01, 2014, 04:39:36 am
Thanks. Nice with a guide that explains how things work for once.
Considering I have restored a bunch of these , I'm not sure if it has to be this complicated, but okay. I'll have to test some drives and get back.
A question is if a badly written disk would work on a properly calibrated disk system. Shouldn't a perfectly calibrated disk system read rewritten disks too? But I'll have to do some testing myself.
Thanks for the feedback.
Since you appear to have experience repairing FDS drives, I'm not sure what you mean by "complicated".
It's basically just one step (step 11) added to those detailed in most other guides.
But the thing with this method is that it's foolproof.
Provided the FDS hasn't been tinkered with before (i.e when you open it, the rubber belt is there in all its molten glory), it is guaranteed to work without you having to go through the hassle of blindly repositioning the spindle hub again and again. And it even works like a breeze with the older, crankier drives, which in my experience have always been the hardest to bring back.
With those steps and a bit of practice, you'll have basically any untouched unit up and running in less than 30 minutes, cleaning included.
The only thing you might need to adjust a little once you're done is the motor speed. But the screw for that is way more accessible than the spindle hub.
As for the "badly written disk" I'd say it's a matter of "how wrongly" the disk was written. Depending on what kinds of repairs the drive had gone through, it can go from "simple motor speed adjustment needed" to "nearly impossible to read".
The latter being for example a disk on which a save file was written at a speed that's beyond the maximum your drive is capable of outputting due to wear. Apparently, there is a certain margin of error allowed by design in those drives, so sometimes, drives with improperly set speed will read data fine, but what they write may be unreadable for more worn drives.
The worst case scenario would be a disk that was entirely rewritten with a drive on which the spindle hub and upper gear were all over the place, and the screws behind and to the right of the head had been played with (there is glue on both those screws - and there is a good reason for that!). That would probably be completely unreadable.
What do you mean by "shouldn't a perfectly calibrated disk system read rewritten disks too?"
If you mean disks rewritten entirely on another somewhat calibrated drive, they'll be able to read them - provided the disks were rewritten at speeds and alignments that were within the margin of error. Otherwise, not.
Again: the FDS drive has no ability to seek for relevant data. Data is written in a spiral on the magnetic disks, and read and fed "as is" to the RAM adapter. The head can only walk one path, at a constant speed, and can't ignore any of the steps.
So if a disk was written on a drive where any of those three was wrong, you'll have to either adjust your drive in order to make it match the "wrong", or find a way to rewrite the disk.
Speaking of which, I've recently finished building my FDSLoaderSaver unit (see the end of my previous post for the URL). I haven't seen it discussed a lot (or even at all) on the English side of the Internet. But I'll just say this device is absolutely
glorious. Incomparably better than the old FDSLoadr cable.
First, it is USB, so no need to keep a Pentium III like a caveman just for your FDS needs. And second, it is able to write disks directly from Windows 7/8, so you can even toss away your copy of DiskKeeper!
Only downside: it's a lot more of a hassle to build than the FDSLoadr. But once it's done, it works flawlessly!
Here's a little pic of my new friend.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/98bwk1.jpg)
Sure, it's not THE best FDS-related device out there (that would be the elusive VirtuaQD), but it is a close second in terms of reading/writing capabilities.
Well, i don't normally unscrew everything and remove the tray, and the many steps seemed complicated. But next time I'll try your guide and get back...
My colleague will be trying to build a FDSLoaderSaver too now. I hope that now, with this guide, we will finally be able to rewrite my stock of wrong disks.
I think the Mobilon bands can be found on ebay these days but if you have a 10pc bag to sell cheap, I might be interested.
We have discussed the FDSLoaderSaver before, but only slightly. I want to try building it someday but I currently don't have any means to program AVR microcontrollers.
Quote from: P on July 01, 2014, 09:51:21 am
We have discussed the FDSLoaderSaver before, but only slightly. I want to try building it someday but I currently don't have any means to program AVR microcontrollers.
My bad, I tried to look for posts about it but couldn't find any.
As for the AVR programmer, you're probably aware of this but just in case, you can build one yourself : http://www.fischl.de/usbasp/
Or alternatively, you can buy one for less than 5 USD on ebay (keyword "USBASP")!
Wow I really appreciate this in depth guide! I will be trying these new alignment techniques sometime later this week and will give you some feedback on the methods! :) Also, I tried looking for that giant bag of FDS belts but can't seem to find it. Are there any online retailers that sell a bag of that size for a reasonable price?
I'm also really interested in making the FDSLoaderSaver, possibly permanently built into an FDS if possible. Whats the total cost of the parts, and can all be found online rather easily? I've never soldered anything with micro-controllers before but I'm willing to learn as long as it doesn't require any complex equipment.
*clap clap clap*
NIce pics. Very nice. And nice story indeed ::)
*clap clap clap*
Ummm... just curious if your mechanic splitting apart whole engine to replace alternator belt? ???
P.S. i feel, that someone is back ???
Quote from: oare on July 01, 2014, 12:57:01 pm
Quote from: P on July 01, 2014, 09:51:21 am
We have discussed the FDSLoaderSaver before, but only slightly. I want to try building it someday but I currently don't have any means to program AVR microcontrollers.
My bad, I tried to look for posts about it but couldn't find any.
As for the AVR programmer, you're probably aware of this but just in case, you can build one yourself : http://www.fischl.de/usbasp/
Or alternatively, you can buy one for less than 5 USD on ebay (keyword "USBASP")!
Discussed is maybe an exaggeration. It's more like it was mentioned once somewhere. I'm glad that someone else bringed it up. And thanks for the tips, I didn't know about USBASP.
Quote from: zmaster18 on July 01, 2014, 01:56:19 pm
I'm also really interested in making the FDSLoaderSaver, possibly permanently built into an FDS if possible. Whats the total cost of the parts, and can all be found online rather easily? I've never soldered anything with micro-controllers before but I'm willing to learn as long as it doesn't require any complex equipment.
The most expensive part is probably the LCD module (about 12$) and maybe that USB module. The rest of the parts are probably quite cheap. Then you have to get an AVR programmer that supports this AVR chip and get it to program with the .hex file that comes with the FDSloaderSaver package. I'm sure you can find instructions online how to program it.
FDSloaderSaver package can be downloaded here: http://kitahei88.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-113.html.
I'm not sure about building it into an FDS disk drive unit. Is there even enough room in the case?
P, there is always space in the battery case.
But then you can't use batteries can you? Anyway it sounds like a lot more work then keeping it as a separate unit.
Yeah, I would mount my board in the battery compartment and then make cuts in the front plate where 'Nintendo Family Computer Disk System' is and put the lcd, buttons, and leds there. I'm ok with wasting an FDS drive on making a permanent FDSLoaderSaver machine. Also wouldn't even have to cut a RAM adapter cable for the setup if it's already hard wired internally in the system.
If someone could provide a list of parts and maybe some general guidelines for building it, that would be much appreciated. I have a batch of bad FDS games that need to be rewritten eventually.
Quote from: 80sFREAK on July 01, 2014, 04:21:47 pm
Ummm... just curious if your mechanic splitting apart whole engine to replace alternator belt? ???
Let me tell you a big secret:
my car's engine doesn't read FDS disks!
Seriously, though, you should try and do some reading about the Mitsumi Quick Disk before you rush into sarcasm on the sole ground of your certitudes (and you certainly hold onto those like an owl onto a dead mouse ;D). There's documentation available, it's just a Google search away. It might enlighten you.
Funnily enough, it appears that this issue has actually been discussed on this very forum back in 2011 (!!). I found the following post by user Xious:
Quote from: Xious on October 12, 2011, 05:50:57 am
This is close to the truth: There are two additional alignment stages, and some drives are particularly stubborn if you ignore them. Try restoring 150 of these buggers sometime and you'll understand what I mean. That window also differs on earlier and later drive mechanisms (there are three major variations).
(...)
For what it is worth, no tool was used by Mitsumi: Gear positioning and other factors mean that you need nothing else, save the correct knowledge. :bomb:
See this thread for reference:
http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=6723.0
Quote from: P on July 01, 2014, 04:29:32 pm
Quote from: zmaster18 on July 01, 2014, 01:56:19 pm
Whats the total cost of the parts, and can all be found online rather easily?
The most expensive part is probably the LCD module (about 12$) and maybe that USB module. The rest of the parts are probably quite cheap.
The most expensive part is actually the USB <-> Serial/Parallel module. It's also probably the hardest to procure outside of Japan.
The UM232H is available for 22 EUR here:
http://www.reichelt.de/Programmer-Entwicklungstools/UM-232-H/3//index.html?ACTION=3&GROUPID=5514&ARTICLE=107168&SHOW=1&START=0&OFFSET=16&&SID=11Ui-CjH8AAAIAAHf6C8w3d62fe084f41156ad8cda1415e5f8f87&LANGUAGE=EN
I used the cheaper AE-FT232HL documented in kitahei88's files, but I don't think it's available from any retailer but Akizuki Denshi (who probably doesn't send stuff abroad).
It was 1200 JPY (about 9 EUR/12 USD). The LCD module was 900 JPY.
Buying all the parts, the total cost should be around 40 EUR/50 USD, maybe?
Quote from: zmaster18 on July 01, 2014, 07:30:43 pm
Yeah, I would mount my board in the battery compartment and then make cuts in the front plate where 'Nintendo Family Computer Disk System' is and put the lcd, buttons, and leds there. I'm ok with wasting an FDS drive on making a permanent FDSLoaderSaver machine. Also wouldn't even have to cut a RAM adapter cable for the setup if it's already hard wired internally in the system.
If someone could provide a list of parts and maybe some general guidelines for building it, that would be much appreciated. I have a batch of bad FDS games that need to be rewritten eventually.
That would be a nice looking device!
Definitely feasible. However, you don't absolutely need to cut a RAM adapter cable in order to build the device. You could just use a 12 pin 2mm pitch socket and a 2mm->2.54mm adapter. That would be non-destructive.
The complete parts list as well as the schematic are in the files at the URL provided by P.
Here's a quick translation of the parts list:
UM232H compatible device (such as the AE-FT232HL) x1
AVR Atmega164P-20PU x1
20MHz crystal x 1
16x2 character LCD (HD44780 compatible) x1
(kitahei88 uses an SD1602HULB, if you use anything else, you'll need to check and adjust the pinout accordingly)
74HCT14 x1 (74HC14 might work too)
Radial lead monolothic multilayer ceramic capacitors 22pF 50V x2
Multilayer ceramic capacitors 0.1uF 50V x4
Electrolytic Capacitors 100uF 16V x1
Semi-fixed potentiometer 10K x1
1/4W carbon resistor 100ohm x1
1/4W carbon resistor 330ohm x4
1/4W carbon resistor 4K7 x1
Push switches x3
Switching diodes 1N4148 x2
5.1V Zener diode 1N5231B x1
LED (any color) x4
Prototyping board (at least 24 x 30 holes) x1
RAM Adapter cable x1
Optional:
Pin header 2x3 *1
EI series post header x1
(Those are for the AVR programmer, kitahei88 uses an AVRISP mk II. I used a cheap USBASP bought on eBay, which came with a 10 pin socket and could draw juice to power the board from the USB port, so I didn't need any of those.)
12 pin 2mm PH series header x1
(That's for the RAM adapter cable; you'll need a 2mm to 2.54mm adapter too if you go this route.)
Also, here's a picture of the backside of my FDSLoaderSaver.
(http://i61.tinypic.com/30w8syd.jpg)
Yes, that's a truckload of wires.
Aah I had just translated that parts list but Oare were quicker. :)
You might also want to get female headers for all the break-out boards (LCD module, UM232H etc) and sockets for the chips like in the pictures. This way you don't need to permanently solder them to the board. Oh and you will want to solder a 16P (or how many pins your LCD has) pin header to your LCD module or you won't be able to plug it in.
Quote from: oare on July 02, 2014, 12:42:43 am
Quote from: P on July 01, 2014, 04:29:32 pm
Quote from: zmaster18 on July 01, 2014, 01:56:19 pm
Whats the total cost of the parts, and can all be found online rather easily?
The most expensive part is probably the LCD module (about 12$) and maybe that USB module. The rest of the parts are probably quite cheap.
The most expensive part is actually the USB <-> Serial/Parallel module. It's also probably the hardest to procure outside of Japan.
The UM232H is available for 22 EUR here:
http://www.reichelt.de/Programmer-Entwicklungstools/UM-232-H/3//index.html?ACTION=3&GROUPID=5514&ARTICLE=107168&SHOW=1&START=0&OFFSET=16&&SID=11Ui-CjH8AAAIAAHf6C8w3d62fe084f41156ad8cda1415e5f8f87&LANGUAGE=EN
I used the cheaper AE-FT232HL documented in kitahei88's files, but I don't think it's available from any retailer but Akizuki Denshi (who probably doesn't send stuff abroad).
It was 1200 JPY (about 9 EUR/12 USD). The LCD module was 900 JPY.
Damn 21.80 € for the USB module. I'm basing the price on the LCD on Swedish prices so they are probably a bit higher than Japan or Canada.
This is really nice story about adjustments, BUT... remember, it was a mass production, which involved human resources.
I think "lock tight"(red or blue glue like substance) on a spindel screw confusing. It is just "lock tight" and you don't have to adjust spindel. Sorry, if someones world started falling apart ::)
That's right, track on the disk is spiral and spinning, so to find beginnig of it you can <censored> around spindel or adjust head unit. Maybe someone should make cardboard model of moving parts to see, that disk is just spinning, head moving following guiding disk and spacing controlled by
spring loaded screw on the head unit. That's right, you can catch beginning of the track by "adjusting" spindel, or take easy route and adjust head unit. And no, don't measure alloy parts without processed sides by caliper. It's alloy.
And the last note. Since we don't have original official Nintendo calibrating disks, we will have three groups of "calibrated" drives. 1)those, who "came on track" from outside; 2)those, who "came on track" from inside and 3)most lucky, who got "to the center".
It is possible to recreate calibrating disk with quite high accuracy, but you will need as many disks as you can get(i would say 50+, maybe 100, the more the better), a drive, tools include caliper and A LOT of time to fill up this table
| # disk | stop read "out", mm | stop read "in", mm | average, mm |
| 1 | xx.xx | yy.yy | zz.zz |
It must be done on the same drive, by the same tools and the same person. The key is amount of disks original or rewritten back in the days. I'm sure some fake "originals" might popup during this test ::)
Quote from: 80sFREAK on July 02, 2014, 05:25:34 pm
That's right, you can catch beginning of the track by "adjusting" spindel, or take easy route and adjust head unit.
My first instinct when reading your message was to post something to the effect of:
a dead mouse might be a very important thing to the eyes of an owl, but to me, it's just a worthless rodent corpse.
However, here, you're saying things that are really potentially harmful to drives, so I feel I have to reply a little more thoroughly.
First, let's agree on something for once: yes, we're talking about a rotating disk, yes, w're talking about a head that moves along that disk, so yes, theoretically, you could calibrate your drive be either: a/ moving the spindle hub so that when the guiding pin locks into the disk, it falls at the right position relatively to the head or b/ moving the head so that it is at the right position relatively to the guiding pin on the spindle hub.
All we need is to have the head and the disk both in the right position so that when the drive begins its reading sequence, the RAM adapter gets the appropriate data fed to it. That's what I've been saying since the beginning.
But solution "b" certainly isn't "the easy route".
First, because the head only has a physically limited moving span. Once it reaches either ends of its rail, it can't go any further than that. So even if the drive had the ability to "wait" until it finds the data track on the disk to start it's reading sequence, positioning the head just a little too far in would mean that it could
never reach the end of the data track.
And second, because trying to find the right position of the head by turning the head would be a nightmare.
Open an FDS drive, and make just one rotation with the lower gear.
See how much the head moves? It's practically zilch. Tenth of a millimeter. Yet, the position of the guiding pin (and hence, the orientation of the spindle hub) has to be right within those tenth of a millimeter, or things won't work. If it can convince you, try this: reposition the spindle hub just a quarter of a turn. Chances are your drive won't read at least a few of your disks anymore. And that quarter of a turn is only a quarter of those tenth of a millimeter.
Now, take a screwdriver and make the smallest turn you can on the head screw. I'm willing to bet you won't have "tenth of a millimeter" of precision. Or you've got bionic hands and eyes. Trying to find the right head position by turning the head screw just isn't realistic.
So what's the reasonable course of action?
The answer is simple: trying to understand the process through which drives were calibrated by Mitsumi, in order to reproduce it.
This is what I'm doing here. I'm not the first. And I'm sure I'm still missing a few things and steps, it's a work in progress.
But it does work. Since I've started doing things this way, I have a 100% success rate in repairing FDS drives. In less than 30 minutes. Every. Single. Time. Do you think it is a coincidence?
One thing is for sure: there are a lot of markers on the drive. The hole in the bottom plate, the hole in the triangle bracket, the black hole on the lower gear, the holes in the head leading plate, the hole on the upper part of the drive. Just to name a few. Here's a question for you: why did somebody decide to put those there? Decoration?
If you ever calibrated FDS, you should know, how many turns is "reading zone" ::)
QuoteFirst, because the head only has a physically limited moving span. Once it reaches either ends of its rail, it can't go any further than that. So even if the drive had the ability to "wait" until it finds the data track on the disk to start it's reading sequence, positioning the head just a little too far in would mean that it could never reach the end of the data track.
And second, because trying to find the right position of the head by turning the head would be a nightmare.
You just shoot your foot ;D
Quote from: 80sFREAK on July 03, 2014, 01:23:08 am
If you ever calibrated FDS, you should know, how many turns is "reading zone" ::)
What?
Sense. Try to make some.
Or rather... Forget it.
Keep posting in your inimitable Pythia style.
I'm actually enjoying it.
Quote from: 80sFREAK on July 03, 2014, 01:23:08 am
You just shoot your foot ;D
Nope.
Now that you mention it, I'd love to try it just for fun, but unfortunately you're using all the bullets.
Nice, very nice story. Keep going ;D At least it breaks okame's monopoly ::)
Okay, I have been trying now, but I can't follow the guide.
Maybe someone else can try and clarify the steps?
The two holes are supposed to be aligned, but I don't understand at what stage they are to be aligned. Is it when the drive is in its position to start reading?
I think I need a guide for the guide...
Quote from: fredJ on July 08, 2014, 02:55:12 pm
Okay, I have been trying now, but I can't follow the guide.
Maybe someone else can try and clarify the steps?
The two holes are supposed to be aligned, but I don't understand at what stage they are to be aligned. Is it when the drive is in its position to start reading?
I think I need a guide for the guide...
The holes need to be aligned when you screw back the gear assembly into the drive and pull the new band down to the motor pulley.
That is, before you start hand-turning the gears in order to find the right position for the spindle hub (the "click").
I should add a picture to clarify this.
I'll try to do that later today.
okay, I understand now, I think.
The one hole is so positioned that you can see it through the plate. And the other hole is aligned in a straight line from it.
But on most model FDS systems, there are two holes in the plate, not in a straight line. I am thinking that maybe one plate hole is to see each hole in the mechanics? Since you mention the importance of the plate holes so much. ;D
I appreciate the guide, but I am not sure if this calibration is more accurate than the "trial and error" head repositioning... I had a hard time getting the two holes in a perfectly straight line, and they easily get out of align when you put in the gears so I am not sure if they are 100% perfect anyways. A little head adjustment fixed the problem.
But I think on earlier model FDS:s this would be a useful technique I will try out.