My long delayed full review of the Retron5 has begun today with part 1 of what will be a 9 part video series detailing in depth the Retron5 as it currently is. Like my other reviews, my aim is to be as through as possible and include way more detailed information than you would find....anywhere.
Here's Part 1. New installments will be out daily.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_18ema35ZSs
Will watch. Thanks for your hard work satoshi!
Part 2 is now published:
This time I thoroughly explain and detail the user interface of the Retron5 as well as go over each of its features, and give my impression on them. Spoilers: all but one of the filters are terrible and you are terrible if you use them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyRbAeRzfZI
Post Merge: September 30, 2014, 09:39:03 pm
Part 3 is now live.
Come explore the Famicom, from games like Mario 3 to technical gems like Lagrange Point and JustBreed, all in glorious 720p.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g82J_dvwIWY
Aren't these Retron consoles just using emulators? If so then I might as well just download the emulator from the internet and play it on my PC.
Yes, they are. The console operates by dumping the ROM from the cartridge and running it in an emulator. There are also known problems with the emulators in question, where certain games won't run properly or in some cases not run at all. It kinda defeats the whole purpose, really.
It's a better alternative to Famiclones though, that's for sure. Far more games work via emulation on the Retron5 than would work via NOACs.
Speaking of which,
Part 4. The NES.
Now you're playing with power.
emulation power!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__lNZJFUVhk
If anyone really wants one of these kits - might consider getting one sooner rather than later, Hyperkin likely have some legal fallout on their hands.
Satoshi does it load games from an SD card? How does it sit with Everdrives? I haven't watched all the videos just yet.
No SD card for roms . You need the cartridge.
I find that really frustrating and contradictory - we're essentially talking about an emulation computer that hooks up to a TV, but you need the individual cartridges?
That's pretty nuts - if you have all those cartridges, you're surely going to have the system for them, which means you're pretty hardened retro gamer, but then it plays emulations of those? That doesn't fit.
It has a conflicted identity this machine, and it's not cheap either. I like all the settings, but let's be honest a cheap PC with controller adaptors, a TV out and access to all games via ROMs is cheaper and does the job better. It's unashamed emulation of course, but now we know the Retron is unadmitted controversial emulation.
Not taking anything away anyone who owns one, just seems a rather conflicted and confused product offering. To me at least.
The Retron5 cannot directly play ROMs loaded on an SD card and cannot read flash carts or the vast majority of pirate multicarts. Only individual games.
The Retron5 works by reading and temporarily dumping the ROM of each individual cart. Once you remove the game, the ROM it dumped is also removed. It's a legal form of emulation as you are essentially dumping and playing your own ROMs. Flashcarts work parallel to the Retron5, not with it.
The Retron5 is emulation based, but that's just used in place of OAC technology used in other clones. I don't see why people are up in arms about it when they're not about clones from Retrobit or Yobo or whoever else.
The Retron5 is great if you have a large collection of carts. you can play them on an HDTV in 720p import your save files and use original controllers.
To be clear, there is no no legal troubles with the Retron5. Only accusations made by libretro of RetroArch, a guy who has a track record of being a jerk to every other emulator author out there while ignoring the fact that RetroArch itself is a mess. I'm ignoring that drama with libretro unless and until something more concrete happens. I dont personally think there will be any legal action at all.
Hmm, interesting points but I should note I wasn't attacking the system or anyone's choice to get it.
For me I like having all the carts to play the real versions of those games, I can jump on ssega.com or another flash site to play those games in 1080p up but it's just not the same for me.
The RetroArch issue is one thing - depends on those guys doing something about it, but the point about having ROMs of games one owns isn't a legal workaround. I've heard that a lot but I actually found out recently it's still illegal, the Retron more so because it navigates the games' code and systems apparently, according to lawyers.
Still, someone's got to do something about it again as per the other point, I don't see that happening ever, but for those that really care about the legality, I suppose it's worth mentioning. I'm not being contentious, it's not my job to worry about it or anything, but it was news to me as well.
I didn't mean to derail any of this - I am considering getting one so am watching the vids with interest. I'd be very interested if it could be hacked/modded to play games from SD card.
That's already happened. People have already hacked the Retron5, but its a giant mess
If you want a box that can run ROMs directly and do all kinds of other things, what you want is an Ouya, not the Retron5. The Retron5 is if you want to run your original carts.
The Ouya has far more emulation options and with USB adapters you could run any controller as well so the differences between them ultimately come down to your preference on physical media vs digital content.
On my channel I've got a video review of the Ouya explaining all this.
Post Merge: October 02, 2014, 09:08:03 pm
Okie dokie, part 5 is now up:
This time the coverage is the SNES and Super Famicom. If you have the eternal save set to the SD card, it makes certain games virtually unplayable. Simply switching to use the internal storage solves these issues. This caused me to record this twice, once before I realized this and here the revised final version.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLVfz7HCkwA
Quote from: satoshi_matrix on October 02, 2014, 02:56:51 pm
The Ouya has far more emulation options and with USB adapters you could run any controller as well so the differences between them ultimately come down to your preference on physical media vs digital content.
This is the one argument I don't get. The Retron 5 a combination of a dumper and an emulator. It dumps the ROM into memory and plays it in an emulator from there. When the ROM is in memory you could probably even remove the cartridge and continue playing because its job is done. How's that different from playing a ROM on any other emulator?
Someone on NESdev said that you could just as well dump your own carts, load them in an emulator and place your cartridge on your emulator-device and pretend that you are playing from the cartridge.
To be honest that's how it feels for me and essentially what I was getting at. You have emulation and you have the real thing.
I ultimately prefer to play the real hardware for a reason and also have a library of carts plus Everdrive specifically for that set up.
Emulation is still viable in my book, just not the same experience - so I'd quite like to have an emulation station from an old PC set up which again would affords better results for less cost than the Retron.
So those are the two ends of the scale (Real>>>>Emus), but importantly I don't quite feel the Retron occupies the middle space, I don't really feel like there is a middle space - it's a bit of a no-mans land because it doesn't have the advantages of either full emulation or full real hardware, yet it does have a fair chunk of the disadvantages (no SD card loading, needing to keep all those carts etc.). To have a big old library of carts is neither cheap nor practical, so it dismisses what I think is the core pro of emulation. However it also dismisses that core pro of real hardware because fundamentally you are only ever playing emulated games, and what's more in the same emulators that are available to anyone with a lowly PC.
That is what is all very odd to me. Now if it had the option to run the real chip-based games on perfectly emulated hardware, as well as the option to load from SD it would be unique.
Quote from: satoshi_matrix on October 02, 2014, 11:02:37 am
To be clear, there is no no legal troubles with the Retron5. Only accusations made by libretro of RetroArch, a guy who has a track record of being a jerk to every other emulator author out there while ignoring the fact that RetroArch itself is a mess. I'm ignoring that drama with libretro unless and until something more concrete happens. I dont personally think there will be any legal action at all.
Are you in denial.
There is evidence of hyperkin using these emulators without the authors consent,if you want to by all means you can disprove it and show everyone wrong.
http://www.libretro.com/index.php/category/blog/
No, I'm not in denial about this.
Yes, it would appear that Hyperkin used open source code without crediting the authors. It is my firm personal opinion that Hyperkin should have directly credited the authors of the open source emulators they used in about "about" page on the firmware, but it is also my opinion that the emulation cores are not being sold by Hyperkin therefore don't contribute to the cost of the hardware, and Hyperkin hasn't done anything legally wrong. I'm not a lawyer nor am I a partner "defending" Hyperkin. This is simply my personal opinion.
Hyperkin has yet to make a statement regarding this, there is no sign of even preliminary legal action whatsoever, and based on emails sent to distributors, Hyperkin is in fact increasing production of more units in time for the Holiday season.
Until something more concrete happens, the most anyone has are personal opinions about this.
All I seek to do is review the Retron5 and evaluate its current functionality, not pass moral judgement on the practice of using uncredited open source code.
Hyperkin won't have to only worry about the emulator makers coming after them but also Nintendo and Sega, so if they do then Hyperkin's finished.
Maybe Nintendo will finally develop a new Metroid game after this lawsuit. LOL
No no, Nintendo or Sega can't do anything. Emulators aren't illegal; only ROM files of commercially sold games under copyright. The Retron5 is in the legal clear as far as Nintendo/Sega goes.
Anyway, speaking of Sega, Part 6 is now live - Genesis, MegaDrive and also Master System if you use an adapter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do7_HlDn2ic
Dumping ROMs is illegal.
Quote from: satoshi_matrix on October 03, 2014, 12:43:18 pm
No, I'm not in denial about this.
Yes, it would appear that Hyperkin used open source code without crediting the authors. It is my firm personal opinion that Hyperkin should have directly credited the authors of the open source emulators they used in about "about" page on the firmware, but it is also my opinion that the emulation cores are not being sold by Hyperkin therefore don't contribute to the cost of the hardware, and Hyperkin hasn't done anything legally wrong. I'm not a lawyer nor am I a partner "defending" Hyperkin. This is simply my personal opinion.
Hyperkin has yet to make a statement regarding this, there is no sign of even preliminary legal action whatsoever, and based on emails sent to distributors, Hyperkin is in fact increasing production of more units in time for the Holiday season.
Until something more concrete happens, the most anyone has are personal opinions about this.
All I seek to do is review the Retron5 and evaluate its current functionality, not pass moral judgement on the practice of using uncredited open source code.
You do realize the reason you can play your roms is because of these freely available emulators.
Hyperken did not write any of the emulators which is fine but they are making money off of these authors and that's the problem.
Quote from: hvc01 on October 04, 2014, 01:49:11 am
Dumping ROMs is illegal.
Dumping ROMs and disturbing them to others is illegal. Making personal and temporary back-ups is not. The Retron5 falls into the latter.
Quote from: Pikkon on October 04, 2014, 06:16:31 am
You do realize the reason you can play your roms is because of these freely available emulators.
Hyperken did not write any of the emulators which is fine but they are making money off of these authors and that's the problem.
The cores Retron tech updates are based on these existing emulators yes, and yes, unlike the Ouya and other devices, they are preinstalled and can't be altered without hacking. But just because the emulaor cores are preinstalled doesn't mean they're being sold. I don't believe the price would differ if they werent' included and you had to install them yourself like on many similar devices.
I mean, the Ouya runs many of the same emulator cores as the Retron5. The SNES emulator you even need to pay for to the person who ported the code to the Ouya, not the author of the emulator to begin with. This is common practice. Look at other devices too. Android Tablets, the Dingoo, Open Pandora, and many others all are sold with the promise to run ROM files using emulators the creators of the device didn't write and are therefore benefiting off the work of those open source emulator authors. The Retron5 is not in any real unique position as far as all that.
Post Merge: October 04, 2014, 09:07:48 pm
Okay, part 7 is now up.
Part 7 - GameBoy, Super GameBoy, GameBoy Color
Of all the things the Retron5 does, this is what I was looking forward to most, since there's no way to play Super GameBoy games on an HDTV without using an RGB upscaler.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrZID1iwArQ
I don't think stores going to sell it now because of all this
QuoteDumping ROMs and disturbing them to others is illegal. Making personal and temporary back-ups is not. The Retron5 falls into the latter.
It's clearly not a backup.
QuoteBut just because the emulator cores are preinstalled doesn't mean they're being sold.
What does it mean then?
Yes it is a backup. It dumps the rom directly from the cartridge and erases it when the cartridge is removed. It is as legal of creating a back up as is possible.
It simply means the emulators aren't sold, and thus I think there would be a very hard case against the argument that hyperkin is violating the stace that open source software cannot be sold. What is being sold is the hardware that runs the open source software. Not the software itself.
anyway.
Next, Part 8. GameBoy Advance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q06g0p6g44
Satoshi I'm afraid you're mistaken on the legality of ROMs - the 'personal copy if you own the cartridge' thing is an urban myth and they are not legal in this way - but are simply not pursued by legal teams, or at least not all of them.
Simply put, creating a backup ROM is not legal because it circumvents copy protection and breaks several clauses. The legislature of 'creating a backup' doesn't disclaim it either, for various reasons.
As for the Hyperkin - very simply the way that it plays games is at the very core of the product offering - so they are being sold in this sense, it would be indefensible.
What you've stated as a disclaimer would unfortunately be a weak defense, because all of their marketing promotion calls out the way that the games are playable, it would never hold up. The law is a fickle thing and doesn't depend on plain logic - it depends on how well a lawyer can argue a case that their POV is the correct one. Nintendo's lawyers would beat Hyperkin's if it came to it, which would also then create a precedent that could be referred back to for any future cases for a pretty much instant decision, quite scary to think about.
What's more, the emulators they used had licenses that have been broken - so there are three key issues that they have hanging over like a muddy cloud.
Having said that, I don't think it will be pulled from the shelves or anything, it may be seen as hard for some stores to have confidence in it though (like buying in more stock).
[post purge]
Aaaaand that aside - I'm looking forward to the GBA video - this is the main thing I'm interested in at the moment.
It's very hard not to comment on the whole thing though hence the above. It's all become part of the discussion I've found.
Quote from: L___E___T on October 06, 2014, 02:28:21 pm
Simply put, creating a backup ROM is not legal because it circumvents copy protection and breaks several clauses. The legislature of 'creating a backup' doesn't disclaim it either, for various reasons.
I've gotta call BS on that one. It's true that you are not allowed to circumvent copy protection when making a backup, but something like a Famicom cart doesn't have copy protection (well, the vast majority of them, anyway). You are legally entitled to a backup. However, you are not, as far as I can tell, legally entitled to play that backup in an emulator.
I agree with your general sentiment, though. Yeah, it's violating all sorts of licenses, but it's hardly the first product to do so. Any store that was willing to carry an emulation device like this isn't likely to pull it from the shelves just because the internet is shouting "it's an emulator!".
The emulator licensing violations are also kind of laughable. I don't think the FSF is going to go to bat for the authors of a piece of software that is, realistically speaking, a means of playing lots of games you didn't pay for. The firmware/software being used should be GPL'd, sure, but any talk of legal action is overblown. The GPL is about openness, not litigation.
On topic: I'm going to be holed up in a hotel room tomorrow night, so maybe I'll get around to watching these videos. It seems like a curious device, even if it is something I don't see myself ever buying.
It's all debatable, but yes I don't see there being announcements on it, it's just not a big enough deal. The emulator guys are annoyed, but that's a sour pill they'll have to swallow.
The ROM thing is interesting, I've heard some refer to lock out chips as copy protection and others to the PRG and CHR banks as copy protection - but yes in the end it's all debatable discussion and would need an actual court case to verify the topic into solidarity.
Nintendo's position is clear, but I don't know how much they've enforced it. Can't find their 101 on it to link now, but it's around.
Nine days of reviews comes to an end with my final thoughts on the Hyperkin Retron5.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM2ehUARe-0
I have added a playlist that includes all videos in this series in case you missed an installment.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLtsZRFeG-MhIDSzwO_hm-FNRNqjd_qQva
Thanks for watching everyone. This is the longest review series for a single product I've ever done, due to the sheer amount that needed to be covered.