This is kinda Famicom-ish, right? ;)
We're working on a video about the Satellite and Four Score, but I'm having a little trouble on some details. The initial draft of the script was a bit... frivolous?
Anyway, looking to answer a couple questions that came up in research. Most articles I find are incomplete:
1) How long are NES cords?
I've seen in lots of places the length reported at 3 feet, and in reference to this you can extend your length wirelessly. But my NES set from 1988 has cords over seven feet, preparing the Satellite by a year. Are mine special? Are people repeating an incorrect stat?
(I actually tried to find references to controller length for a previous video, and ended up relying on my own measurements, because I couldn't find any.)
2) What is the "Gun" switch for?
I didn't find any documentation on this. Through experimentation I did not notice a difference when it was on or off. The gun and other Famicom EXT peripherals also appear to work on any port (again, regardless of the position of the switch). It could be that the switch on my unit just isn't working. Would anyone have a manual, or some anecdotal experience around this to confirm/deny?
Thanks, as always. You guys are the best!
Hey Sean, NES and SNES western style cables are usually labelled as 6' or 2m. They are a couple inches longer. Japanese Super Famicom is just 3 feet by the way.
Quote from: SeanOrange on January 04, 2016, 06:05:26 pm
1) How long are NES cords?
I've seen in lots of places the length reported at 3 feet, and in reference to this you can extend your length wirelessly. But my NES set from 1988 has cords over seven feet, preparing the Satellite by a year. Are mine special? Are people repeating an incorrect stat?
The Wikipedia article for the Satellite says three feet, but it references an old NY Times article that says:
Quote
The company's new $150 Sports Set provides a satellite system with four controllers that operate the control deck from as far away as 15 feet (the normal range is about three feet.)
Not sure how credible that is. From my experience, the wireless range of the Satellite is more like three feet rather than fifteen :-[
I haven't dug out my NES controllers in a while, but seven feet sounds a lot more accurate than three.
Quote from: SeanOrange on January 04, 2016, 06:05:26 pm
2) What is the "Gun" switch for?
I would have guessed it was to enable Zapper support in the controller two slot, but I can't say I've tested it!
I'd measure my controller cords if I still had them but I don't.
Are you gonna mention the various Famicom multitap-solutions, and their incompatibility with the NES ones? I think that is something people wants to know, and it's something not mentioned a lot.
Quote from: SeanOrange on January 04, 2016, 06:05:26 pm
2) What is the "Gun" switch for?
I guess your switch isn't working. Sounds like it's a switch for d3 and d4. Some quick googling says that Zapper must connect to port 2, that the switch must be on and the unit must be restarted. Weird...
We'll tackle the P2+ as separate three topics: the Famicom third player via the EXT port, the Famicom multitap (I have the HORI one), and this one about the Satellite and Four Score. Each of the other two will get a brief mention for each video, but there's just too much to tackle as one mega-topic. The NES one is getting done first to stay as close as possible to the 30th anniversary... not that it matters so much any more, hahaha.
I may try to track down another Satellite, then, to see if it behaves any differently from the one I have. I don't want to put something into the video that's wrong.
Oh! I guess I could try the thing where the whole unit is reset when I change the switch. I definitely didn't do that when I was testing, and the switch might have been in the on position. It seems like the 2P/4P switch works without resetting, though. Just need to test more, I guess!
Thanks, all.
Expanding the scope now to include Famicom multiplayer stuff!
In writing a first pass at the S riot for the three-player Famicom games, I started to come to a few conclusions and test out some theories.
I have Moero Twin Bee (although I need to fix my FDS), and Bomerman 2. Does anyone know of any other 3P-only games? My searching so far has uncovered precious little. Who here is a Bomberman expert, and knows if 2 was the first game to feature more than two simultaneous players?
I also have the HORI 4 Players Adapter, and a bunch of games that use it. I intend to test this experimentally, but does anyone know for sure if the assertion is true that Kunio-Kuh soccer game that became Nintendo World Cup is only two players?
Thanks!
Info about 3P/4P games is scarce. The list on the forum isn't very good either.
PC Engine version of Bomberman 1 was released 1990 and features five player battle mode (Famicom Bomberman II is 1991).
The Hori 4player multitap, can you use controller 1 on it the same way as the hardwired controller 1 for games like Super Mario USA (I don't think the expansion port allows that but I'm not sure)? And do the 4-player option only work with games that was made to work with that particular multitap or can it be used for all 3-/4-player Famicom games?
The game that became Nintendo World Cup is Nekketsu Koukou Dodgeball-bu Soccer-hen right? Can't find any info if it has 4-player mode or not, but the sequel apparently does have it (Kunio-Kun no Nekketsu Soccer League).
Thanks for the info!
One of the things I want to verify experimentally is how the different combinations of controllers work. Since ther'a a switch to put it in a mode that replaces the hardwired controllers, if so desired, that can lead to many different potential combinations. Does the third player work for 3P-only games in either mode, and which ports? Can peripherals like the light gun be used in conjunction with it, and which ports?
One problem I have is I only have two ext port controllers right now, so I will at least need to get a third one in order to make sure he experiments are robust enough.
Thanks again!
Yeah that's what I want to know too. How does it work with the two you have so far? Are they working like normal expansion port controllers? Here's a list of games that doesn't read bit 1 of $4016/$4017 (http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=6701.msg167005#msg167005) (which means expansion controllers doesn't work with these games).
Awesome resource! Now I need to find a JoyCard Sansui...
If I'm reading that post correctly, though, it seemed like he was trying NES carts through a converter on a Famicom, but it was kinda unclear because I'm some cases he listed both versions of a game (Super Mario 2/USA), and some Famicom-only games, plus made mention that it doesn't work for Zelda II, but DOES for the FDS version (which is the only version the Famicom got). So it's unclear to me how many of them were tested with Famicpm carts.
I do have a few of those games, so I can try it out. If the trend is that western-developed games initially made for the NES don't support the feature, and their Famicom ports do not either, then maybe that's worth noting.
I'm sure Vinnk has a lot more games than I do, so perhaps he could help me experiment. Eh? Eh, Vinnk?
You are right, the list isn't clear, but I think he tested both versions. Generally if one version doesn't work, no version works (unless the localizers added it of course), maybe Masaya added expansion port reading to Japanese Battletoads though, but I think they didn't or I would probably have included it in the list. But the important thing is that you have at least one of those games (or an Everdrive) so you can test it out.
Super Mario USA, Pinball and Robot Gyro are among the few Japanese made games that fails to read the port (all versions).
Both Zelda II FDS and Yume Koujou Doki Doki Panic do read it, but not the cart versions. So Nintendo must have removed it for whatever reason, which is 100% pointless as far as I can tell, it's not like it optimises anything in any way.
Now to whittle that down into a numerous anecdote that a lay-person can understand...!
Ah sorry! What did I say that's hard to understand? I'm a lay-person too so I know how hard it is to understand these things when you don't know all the technical details.
I guess I'll just try to explain the deal with expansion port controllers fully, and in layman language:
The current button state of each controller can be found out by reading a certain bit in a certain register, each game needs to keep reading this bit to see what actions to take based on what the player is pushing (say let Mario jump if the A button was pushed). Each controller has it's own bit, they are called the following:
Controller I may be read from $4016.0 (this means bit # 0 in register $4016)
Controller II may be read from $4017.0
Expansion controller 1 may be read from $4016.1
Expansion controller 2 may be read from $4017.1
The numbers aren't important though so let's just call them con 1 register, con 2 register, con 3 register and con 4 register respectively.
Expansion controller 1 is the one you connect to the expansion port. Expansion controller 2 must either be connected in a controller that has it's own built-in exp port or using a twin multitap. I guess your Hori multitap also works (but this is partly what we wanna know right?).
Games that only reads con 1 and con 2 registers will simply ignore any input from expansion port controllers (Super Mario USA etc).
Most games reads con 3 and con 4 registers also, and handles input from these register like they where from con 1 and con 2 registers (in other words Expansion controller 1 and 2 will work the same way as the built-in controllers I and II respectively).
3- and 4-player games also reads con 3 and con 4 but instead handles them separately for controlling player 3 and player 4.
There you have it in a nutshell. Please tell me if something is confusing and I'll try to explain it properly.
No! Sorry! What I meant was now it's my task to reduce all of that for the video we're making.
I see.
Preliminary findings:
Wit's
-Four player works great!
-HORI adapter in 4P mode duplicates players 1 and 2 on the first two controllers, hardwired controllers still usable
Bomberman II
-Three players works as expected in Battle Mode
-2P versus 4P mode on HORI adapter makes no difference; only a controller in the P1 position will work (in any game mode.) Functions the same as if the adapter weren't used at all.
-In Normal mode, all three controllers can control P1
Nekketsu High School Dodgeball Club Soccer Edition
-2P only
-EXP control P1 (in any mode on HORI adapter)
-Surprisingly, HORI adapter P2 duplicates hardwired P2 as well. This is the first instance I've heard of where this has happened in a non-3P+ game
Bikkuri Nekkestu Shinkiroku
-4P, two alternating (P1 vs P2, and P3 vs P4)
-Uses P1 to control P1/P3, and P2 to control P2/P4
-HORI adapter duplicates P1/P2
-2P/4P switch does not work
Nekkestu Kakutou Densetsu
-4-player simultaneous battle mode
-HORI adapter switch does not work at all; P3/P4 only work on first two ports
-P3 and P4 control P1 and P2 in 1-2P story mode
Nekketsu High School Dodgeball Club
-Simultaneous 4P
-HORI adapter switch does not work at all; P3/P4 only work on first two ports
US Championship V'Ball
-All in English
-4P simultaneous
-2P/4P switch works
Nekketsu Hockey Club (etc)
-Has a 4P battle mode, but...
-1P/3P and (I assume) 2P/4P alternating
-Even so, you HAVE to use the 3rd (and I assume 4th) player to control the opposing team. Using P2 does not work
-There is a 2P mode where you only use P1 and P2. P3 and P4 replicate P1/2 in that case
-2P/4P switch does not work
Downtown Nekketsu Koshinkyoku
-4P simultaneous
-2P/4P switch works
Rockman 5
-P3 mirrors P1
Super Mario USA
-Confirmed EXP port does not work at all
SMB
-P3 mirrors P1
Quote
Nekketsu High School Dodgeball Club Soccer Edition
-Surprisingly, HORI adapter P2 duplicates hardwired P2 as well. This is the first instance I've heard of where this has happened in a non-3P+ game
Try it in SMB. P2 should duplicate con II if it works like a normal expansion port splitter.
QuoteSMB
-P3 mirrors P1
Hmm what is this? Suddenly only P3 works? In other games (Bomberman II and Nekketsu games) the P1 duplicates the hardwired con I right? Or was that a typo?
Other than that, everything makes perfect sense. P1/P2 is the same as Expansion Controller 1 and 2, and P3/P4 is only used in games that specifically support the adapter. US Championship V'Ball seems to support this.
Is this the same game as Super Spike V'Ball, not released on Famicom? Edit: Oops it was released on Famicom.
I'm confused why you're confused about the SMB thing, hahaha.
Post Merge: January 23, 2016, 11:11:27 am
More updates:
SMB
-P4 also controls P2
Duck Hunt
-Light Gun doesn't work on any port of the adapter. I'm guessing the right pins aren't passing through.
-But P3 and P4 control P1 and P2 -- you can control the ducks from the adapter!
-As expected, the 2P/4P switch does nothing
JJ
-3D System doesn't work in the adapter (no surprise)
-BUT, the adapter for the 3D System has a passthrough, and this was the first time I was able to try it. The 4 Players Adaptervworks great!
-P3 controls P1
Post Merge: January 24, 2016, 08:00:05 am
Quote from: P on January 23, 2016, 02:18:40 am
QuoteSMB
-P3 mirrors P1
Hmm what is this? Suddenly only P3 works? In other games (Bomberman II and Nekketsu games) the P1 duplicates the hardwired con I right? Or was that a typo?
Okay, I think I understand where I was unclear.
In Battle Mode, which accepts up to three players, each controller (1-3) only controls one character. P4 doesn't work at all.
In the one-player story mode, all three controllers.
I didn't even occur to me to try P4 on SMB, so I'm glad you said somethings, or I would have missed it.
QuoteOkay, I think I understand where I was unclear.
In Battle Mode, which accepts up to three players, each controller (1-3) only controls one character. P4 doesn't work at all.
In the one-player story mode, all three controllers.
I see, they all control player 3, while player 1 and 2 needs the hardwired controllers.
So it's P3 and P4 that works like Exp con 1 and 2 respectively, not P1 and P2. It's puzzling though why P1 and P2 works in some games.
EXP 1 controls Player 1 in the story mode, but so does P2. It's only in Battle Mode where each of those controllers actually controls a different character.
Is Hori 4P adapter necessary in the games that Hori 4P switch works? Or... is it possible to play 4P mode in these games with Hori Twin adapter or Hal JoyPair?
EDIT: Has anyone played "Nekketsu Soccer League" (~Kunio Soccer 2) with the Hori 4P adapter? Does the switch work?
The few games that support the Hori adapter seems to support the standard multitaps as well.
I'd guess Nekketsu Soccer League uses the standard multitap like all other Kunio-kun games. But I haven't tried it.