I don't even have it & I'm talking about it..Looks Cool
Now I would get one if I had the $$$
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXnmhsKVr50
Overpriced emulation doesn't excite me :)
It's not emulation ..It's FPGA
Watch the Video
Still emulation, just hardware based as opposed to software based. Better in the sense that you remove the software overhead, but still emulation. FPGA is just being used as a marketing ploy to make people think it's more than what it actually is.
Just stating that it's still emulation. Seems to be lots of people throwing the 'it's not emulation, it's FPGA' term around and this is inaccurate. It most definitely is emulation, hardware based yes but emulation nonetheless.
Whether it's worth $310 US with 2 x matching controllers and delivery is for each individual person to decide.
Quote from: Frank_fjs on February 09, 2018, 07:36:45 pm
Whether it's worth $310 US with 2 x matching controllers and delivery is for each individual person to decide.
Why buy it when you could just buy a PVM and original hardware for the same price or cheaper and have it as authentic as possible?
I agree but it's still cool that the hardware is being documented in detail. The Super Famicom isn't going to last forever so it's good to think of ways to reproduce the hardware in the future. Wish it was open source though so the documentation was shared by the public.
Quote from: Frank_fjs on February 09, 2018, 07:11:14 pm
FPGA is just being used as a marketing ploy to make people think it's more than what it actually is.
It's a lot of work for a simple "marketing ploy" though. Call it hardware emulation or not but don't lump it together with software emulation that simply can't work exactly identically because of how CPUs work. Programmable logic can reproduce digital logic 100% in theory but in practice of course there will be major or minor differences depending on how well it's implemented. But different hardware revisions of the real Super Famicom will also have minor differences so it's just a matter in how much detail you are willing to go before you consider it accurate enough.
I don't mean to sound harsh, not knocking the product, the idea or FPGAs. Just don't appreciate deceitful marketing tactics or the belief that programming a chip is the same as real hardware. Great substitute but you can't say it's the same. I've already seen reports of it not working with certain carts, that should be impossible if 'it's not emulation'. Why do genuine SFC consoles play these carts as intended but not the Super NT? Because it IS emulation and will never be 100% accurate.
I understand your concerns, but by "programming a chip" you set physical gates to produce the digital logic you want instead of using discrete components or ASIC chips to do the same thing. So it should be able to be the same thing on a digital level. Of course on a microscopic physical level there are differences due to laws of physics but that goes for different revisions of the real SFC as well, and even different SFC consoles of the same revision, every SFC is unique after all.
I also thing you are a bit fast to judging FPGA technology just by the fact that certain games doesn't work on the Super NT. Not everything about the SFC is fully understood yet so it's still not possible to remake a 100% identical machine. We probably need some chips to get de-capped which is an expensive and delicate process.
I have to be honest, I do love the machine but als think they've deliberately suggested there's no emulation involved at all, and FPGA is still 'emulating/cloning' hardware. Yes it's accurate, but to me it's still like saying NOAC is "real hardware, real chips, real cartridges" type of marketing line. But then that's just what marketing is, making the most of your product.
I've watched a lot of reviews, it is pretty much unanimously deemed an amazing product. It doesn't have everything I'md want to get one now, but I will get one at some point. At present, my SNES mini ticks the 'games on an HD screen via HDMI' checkbox, but as soon as extra cores get added and there's an HDMI downscale option, I'll grab one!
Well it's no doubt a clone but if we can reliably produce a clone that works 100% the same as the original on a digital logic level the SFC's future is saved. The digital logic is the spirit of the machine.
You can define the word emulator however you want but when I hear the word I think more of software emulation and Retron 5 and such things which isn't really what we want. And NOAC is just a funny clone that manages to get a lot of things wrong.
Yes NOAC is a quick and hasty hardware emulation - but to me they are in the same family as FPGA.
That aside, I totally get the appeal and why people love FPGA solutions.
I also saw that the first jailbreak homebrew appeared for it as well:
http://www.retrocollect.com/News/recently-released-analogue-super-nt-snes-console-gets-jailbroken-firmware.html
Would love it if this thing could run NES, Megadrive, Neo Geo and heck maybe even CPS2. Not sure how powerful it is.
Quote from: togemet2 on February 20, 2018, 01:34:14 am
I still don't have a Super NT, however, people keep telling me to get one. Not sure what the point is when I already have the original hardware (which I prefer playing anyway). Is it worth it? ???
No, I wouldn't recommend one. If you don't already and can afford it, I'd recommend picking up a PVM and getting RGB out of your hardware. Much better idea. 8)
CRTs aren't going to last forever, and they're extremely inconvenient in the time of flat televisions that don't break your back when trying to move them. Having a good system with HDMI out basically future-proofs your SNES gaming.
Disclaimer: I have three CRTs, one of which I play my RGB-modded AV Famicom on, and I still think the Analogue NT Mini was an excellent purchase.
Quote from: togemet2 on February 20, 2018, 02:00:00 am
Already have a really nice PVM. Still need to get RGB out of the SFC though! :D
The SNES original model 1s output RGB by default... So all you'll need is an RGB / SCART cable :)
The discussion you'll see online is about the output visual quality of that RGB signal. Original model 1s tend to have a 'white stripe' down the middle that is very soft, and less crisp pixels, but it's still legit RGB and better than component.
The model 2s aka Jr / Mini models have to be modded to output RGB, but it's an easy mod and once done they output very crisp RGB basically on par with the 1CHIP SNES you may have read about.
I still think the SNES looks way better on a CRT or PVM/BVM than on any flatscreen, but I also am looking forward to getting a Super NT at some point hopefully soon - especially now that the (first?) unofficial firmware has been released. Now if only that can add one or two systems on to that!
Quote from: togemet2 on February 20, 2018, 02:22:06 am
Quote from: Ghegs on February 20, 2018, 02:01:27 am
CRTs aren't going to last forever, and they're extremely inconvenient in the time of flat televisions that don't break your back when trying to move them. Having a good system with HDMI out basically future-proofs your SNES gaming.
Disclaimer: I have three CRTs, one of which I play my RGB-modded AV Famicom on, and I still think the Analogue NT Mini was an excellent purchase.
That's very true. However, I still enjoy the "feel" of playing on a CRT. It's almost indescribable. Mostly the way it looks I guess. Not too fond of how games are displayed on flat screens. But I entirely see where you are coming from. (Also that means no Super Scope :'().
Quote from: L___E___T on February 20, 2018, 02:17:14 am
The SNES original model 1s output RGB by default... So all you'll need is an RGB / SCART cable :)
The discussion you'll see online is about the output visual quality of that RGB signal. Original model 1s tend to have a 'white stripe' down the middle that is very soft, and less crisp pixels, but it's still legit RGB and better than component.
The model 2s aka Jr / Mini models have to be modded to output RGB, but it's an easy mod and once done they output very crisp RGB basically on par with the 1CHIP SNES you may have read about.
I still think the SNES looks way better on a CRT or PVM/BVM than on any flatscreen, but I also am looking forward to getting a Super NT at some point hopefully soon - especially now that the (first?) unofficial firmware has been released. Now if only that can add one or two systems on to that!
I'll probably look into using RGB on a SFC a bit more. I'm not too experienced since I haven't used RGB all that much. Maybe I'll pick up the cable sometime soon. Interested to see how good it would look, especially for games like DKC2. :)
I'm with you on this. We've gotta enjoy the PVMs and CRTs while we can. I only recommend looking into the specifics of the model video quality differences if you're really that picky about it. There's a visible difference, but it's not a game changer for me. Since you already have a PVM, you can just get a cable to connect SCART to the four plugs on the back (their name is slipping my mind...BMC?) and an SFC SCART cable, and then you're set for a fantastic SFC picture quality on original hardware. 8)
Yes there's a great all in one SCART from retrogamingcables.co.uk that will get to you quickly and without added cost. And I would agree that the difference in RGB quality on something like a 20 PVM is negligible. But the improvement from composite to RGB on a PVM is pretty big and well worth the cost of a cable :)
Yes they are expensive as they are a sort of collectors item on their own. But these are just as good if not even better:
https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/nintendo/super-nintendo
Which cable you need depends on what machine you are using exactly (happy to help identify).
The official ones wasn't so popular (I guess people didn't care about RGB back then) so that's why they are rare and expensive, plus Nintendo probably didn't make all kinds of combinations like NTSC SFC cable with SCART RGB (the Japanese RGB isn't compatible with SCART although it has the same connector). I'm using RGB cables from the place LET linked to and can recommend them as well.
It's important you use the correct cable for your console and TV combination or you can damage something.
Quote from: P on February 20, 2018, 08:58:58 pm
It's important you use the correct cable for your console and TV combination or you can damage something.
I've never understood, what is the point of JP RGB cables nowadays? Everyone seems to be using SCART. Does anyone ever hook up JP cables and if so, how?
I suppose if you have a Japanese TV with RGB (if that exists) or upscaler. My TV (that I'm borrowing now from my work in Japan) is too modern to have that it seems.
SCART is a European standard, didn't knew it existed elsewhere.
I think people get confused between SCART and JP21. The connector is the same style and basically looks the same, but I think JP21 has less pins and a different pinout as well. I was new to all of this.
I use a SCART out from my SFC and SNES, connected to the PVM with a SCART to BNC adaptor. Very straightforward setup but I'll be honest that I don't understand fully all the specifics with this stuff.
My Life In Gaming do a very good video on YouTube though covering exactly this, and sync on luma etc.
Yes different pinout. I read that the voltage runs on different pins which means you may damage something if you use a SCART cable on a JP21 TV or vice versa. That's one reason you need to know what cable to get. Another is that the NTSC and PAL SFC/SNES uses different pinout in the RGB cable (same problem again, voltage is sent on a different pin) and may damage something if the wrong one is used.
There is still another native way to connect the original hardware to LCD TV- use a component cable. Component cables are basically RGB cables that have slightly different hardware and component signal uses progressive scan, so many LCD TVs accept this signal with no delay just the same as HDMI. The original SNES has RGB output and there is even a dedicated component cable for it that gets sold out all the time:
http://www.hdretrovision.com/snes/
This cable will work on all SNES model 1, RGB modded Famicom AV and RGB modded N64, it will probably work on RGB Gamecube as well. You can also use NESRGB component upgrade and build the same external component cable using it, I believe it will behave 100% the same as the Retrovision cable pictured above:
http://etim.net.au/nesrgb/component/
I made 1 cable using this component upgrade and it works awesome, I can confirm it works on SNES PAL, SNES NTSC-US and Famicom AV RGB modded, all displaying crisp picture on my LCD TV. If anyone is interested then I should be able to make more cables and sell them here
New Video Review - includes the additions of the latest firmware update:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TzZptqR-24&t=2s
Interesting that this chap also calls it emulation, because as good as hardware emulation is, it's still emulation in that it's not exactly the same as 1:1 original hardware, (which is important to some).
My friend is bringing his round for me to look at hopefully this weekend, so I'm looking forward to trying it out on the big screen and comparing with the SNES mini I have here.
Quote from: aitsu124 on February 21, 2018, 12:29:42 pm
Quote from: P on February 20, 2018, 08:58:58 pm
It's important you use the correct cable for your console and TV combination or you can damage something.
I've never understood, what is the point of JP RGB cables nowadays? Everyone seems to be using SCART. Does anyone ever hook up JP cables and if so, how?
The use of JP RGB or RGB21-Pin as is calling here is not very common use nowadays. But, it is one option to get better picture quality for certain old computer systems such as the MSX for example. I use this for example in a JVC MSX2 machine to output digital RGB which of course much better than example RF. Another example is people wanna convert RGB21 to use with analog RGB, Sharp X68000 can be connect with example CRT TV or old style computer monitors example from NEC using with this.
Mainly is for hobbyist or even some old shop is using old equipment it is used. It can be used with upscaler or converter too, even up to HDMI but using such computer as MSX2 with big HDMI display for me is nono, is simply defeat purpouse using normal MSX2 as oppose to using emulation. I use old analogue CRT like 15-Khz and such, it can be handy for that purpouse if nothing else.
How common is or was the RGB21-Pin on Japanese TVs? I guess it's not common on new TVs.
Quote from: L___E___T on February 27, 2018, 05:01:41 am
New Video Review - includes the additions of the latest firmware update:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TzZptqR-24&t=2s
Interesting that this chap also calls it emulation, because as good as hardware emulation is, it's still emulation in that it's not exactly the same as 1:1 original hardware, (which is important to some).
It's important to me too, or else I wouldn't still be using an original SFC. As long as you are clear what you mean you can use whatever word you like. Commonly clone is the word used for NOAC and FPGA devices and emulator machine is used for things that is an embedded computer with a custom Linux or other OS environment running software emulators like the Retron 5 and the Classic Mini does.
Or should we start using words like Familator or NOAC emulator instead of Famiclone and NOAC clone?
If someone (outside of Nintendo) reproduced an SFC so that it's 100% identical to the original I would still call it a clone, as it doesn't have the same history as an original.
Quote from: P on February 27, 2018, 07:39:13 pm
Or should we start using words like Familator or NOAC emulator instead of Famiclone and NOAC clone?
Something like this is a lot more accurate than just "emulator", IMO. It's really not emulation, unless you consider NOACs to be emulation. It's an
imitation, sure, but that's not the same thing. I would throw "FPGA NOAC" out there as a suggestion (although I guess this is a SNAOC?).
Haha yeah SNOAC!
Though my point is I rather not use potentially confusing terminology so FPGA NOAC/SNOAC may just confuse people when you can just say FPGA clone and everyone know what you mean. This is only because NOAC may be associated with the cheap inaccurate NOAC chip that is used in most modern Famiclones.
Quote from: P on February 21, 2018, 03:23:32 pm
I suppose if you have a Japanese TV with RGB (if that exists) or upscaler. My TV (that I'm borrowing now from my work in Japan) is too modern to have that it seems.
SCART is a European standard, didn't knew it existed elsewhere.
They definitely exists but are not common.
http://lancelot2.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2011-12-01
http://www.generation-msx.nl/hardware/sony/cps-14f1/media/729/
Then there's a more modern sony crt's that take rgb but uses a ps1\ps2 connector.
http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown/3715/tv.html
Also I joined the rgb club as I modded my sony trinitron and the picture is just awesome,even better that I have my pi 3 running on it.