Famicom World

https://www.gematsu.com/2024/08/city-connection-announces-riki-8bit-game-collection-for-switch

Having Kira Kira Star Night!, Astro Ninja Man DX, 8Bit Music Power, 8Bit Music Power Final, and 8Bit Music Power Encore available on Switch was not on my bingo card.

The physical version's already up for pre-order at Play-Asia. Probably not going to get it myself, but at least with this you don't have to worry about Columbus Circle's cart breaking your Famicom.

I'm not getting this either, but the cartridges wouldn't damage the lovely clones that Columbus Circle was advertising and selling to go with their games. Using them on a real Famicom was only secondary :P

Quote from: fcgamer on August 08, 2024, 07:59:29 am...the cartridges wouldn't damage the lovely clones that Columbus Circle was advertising and selling to go with their games. Using them on a real Famicom was only secondary :P

Which is nothing but predatory practices on Columbus Circle's part. Don't know how this was accepted in Japan where their actual target audience is (anybody know?), but in west something like this would have received huge amounts of backlash.

Imagine a company that publishes a lot of NES homebrews, like Broke Studios or Mega Cat Studios, start selling their own NES clones and saying that the NES carts they publish might have issues with official systems (with users experiencing even damage to the system), but their own clone system will play them perfectly. It would not go down well.

I couldn't find any discussions regarding it on the Japanese part of internet, but I doubt it's being ignored. Japanese Famicom enthusiasts are probably aware of the problem and enraged about it as much as anyone else would rightly be.

Quote from: Ghegs on August 08, 2024, 10:16:25 am

Quote from: fcgamer on August 08, 2024, 07:59:29 am...the cartridges wouldn't damage the lovely clones that Columbus Circle was advertising and selling to go with their games. Using them on a real Famicom was only secondary :P

Which is nothing but predatory practices on Columbus Circle's part. Don't know how this was accepted in Japan where their actual target audience is (anybody know?), but in west something like this would have received huge amounts of backlash.

Imagine a company that publishes a lot of NES homebrews, like Broke Studios or Mega Cat Studios, start selling their own NES clones and saying that the NES carts they publish might have issues with official systems (with users experiencing even damage to the system), but their own clone system will play them perfectly. It would not go down well.

There's nothing inherently wrong about this. At the end of the day, all of the companies mentioned above are unauthorized, and could be considered as bootlegs, homebrew, indie, whatever - it's all the same though, unauthorized products that can't (shouldn't) make a claim of 100% compatibility when it's not authorized and licensed by the console producer.

I remember even if the N64 era hearing horror stories of how something like the Game Shark could cause damage to your machine, and even once when I was young I got an N64 unauthorized controller from an Amway catalogue. When it eventually stopped working, I called the Nintendo hotline (I was young), and was told how the product was unlicensed, could possibly damage the system, etc etc.

So the idea that these large companies *are* expressing complete compatibility, I would say is potentially fraudulent in and of itself. Not sure how you can guarantee something just because you said so.

That being said, they could go nuts on assuring compatibility with their own machines, and rightfully so.

Furthermore, over the recent decades there's been a ton of Famiclones in Japan, even Hard Off has their own (if anyone here has one, I'm in the market for it). This suggests to me that for who knows what reason, there must be quite a demand for them, thus this "problem" is even further diminished if a large percentage of the population isn't even running it on a real hardware.

Oh and on retro USB's AVS, they released a whole series of games designed specifically for their machine, which happen to more or less be NES compatible. As mentioned above, it's foolish for any company to guarantee their games 100% compatibility on a machine they didn't design, when they're unauthorized and not working through official channels.

Quote from: fcgamer on August 08, 2024, 09:33:51 pm

Quote from: Ghegs on August 08, 2024, 10:16:25 am

Quote from: fcgamer on August 08, 2024, 07:59:29 am...the cartridges wouldn't damage the lovely clones that Columbus Circle was advertising and selling to go with their games. Using them on a real Famicom was only secondary :P

Which is nothing but predatory practices on Columbus Circle's part. Don't know how this was accepted in Japan where their actual target audience is (anybody know?), but in west something like this would have received huge amounts of backlash.

Imagine a company that publishes a lot of NES homebrews, like Broke Studios or Mega Cat Studios, start selling their own NES clones and saying that the NES carts they publish might have issues with official systems (with users experiencing even damage to the system), but their own clone system will play them perfectly. It would not go down well.

There's nothing inherently wrong about this.

Boggles the mind that somebody would think this, especially someone who's trying to break into the homebrew scene themselves. The implications are worrisome.

All western homebrew developers (and parties manufacturing the carts) work on getting their game working on a base NES safely and reliably. While obviously they don't want to advertise 100% compatibility for legal reasons, the system's technical details have been documented so thoroughly that achieving that compatibility in practice is not an impossible feat. And so they tend to state that their games have been tested on official systems, but they can't guarantee compatibility on clone systems.

When using the original system as a base, the games will work on clones just fine as long as the clones are close enough to the original. But if you use a clone system as target and adjust your game code and/or cartridge design accordingly, then you run the risk of having problems with original systems AND other clone systems.

With the way Columbus Circle operates, it's obvious they don't give a toss about original systems or the overall player base. With simple changes to the cart design they could've made their games safer to use with official Famicoms and other clones, but they'd rather fry your system so they can sell you their own clone system to make more money.

This is nothing but greed and disrespect for customers.

Quote from: Ghegs on August 08, 2024, 11:13:24 pm

Quote from: fcgamer on August 08, 2024, 09:33:51 pm

Quote from: Ghegs on August 08, 2024, 10:16:25 am

Quote from: fcgamer on August 08, 2024, 07:59:29 am...the cartridges wouldn't damage the lovely clones that Columbus Circle was advertising and selling to go with their games. Using them on a real Famicom was only secondary :P

Which is nothing but predatory practices on Columbus Circle's part. Don't know how this was accepted in Japan where their actual target audience is (anybody know?), but in west something like this would have received huge amounts of backlash.

Imagine a company that publishes a lot of NES homebrews, like Broke Studios or Mega Cat Studios, start selling their own NES clones and saying that the NES carts they publish might have issues with official systems (with users experiencing even damage to the system), but their own clone system will play them perfectly. It would not go down well.

There's nothing inherently wrong about this.

Boggles the mind that somebody would think this, especially someone who's trying to break into the homebrew scene themselves. The implications are worrisome.

All western homebrew developers (and parties manufacturing the carts) work on getting their game working on a base NES safely and reliably. While obviously they don't want to advertise 100% compatibility for legal reasons, the system's technical details have been documented so thoroughly that achieving that compatibility in practice is not an impossible feat. And so they tend to state that their games have been tested on official systems, but they can't guarantee compatibility on clone systems.

When using the original system as a base, the games will work on clones just fine as long as the clones are close enough to the original. But if you use a clone system as target and adjust your game code and/or cartridge design accordingly, then you run the risk of having problems with original systems AND other clone systems.

With the way Columbus Circle operates, it's obvious they don't give a toss about original systems or the overall player base. With simple changes to the cart design they could've made their games safer to use with official Famicoms and other clones, but they'd rather fry your system so they can sell you their own clone system to make more money.

This is nothing but greed and disrespect for customers.

In today's world, it is irresponsible for developers not to test their games on multiple machines, period. There are instances where some games work properly on some Famicom revisions and not others, some NES revisions and not others, etc. and that even ignores the clones.

We've had this argument before, years ago, but the fact of the matter is that with their promo pictures, Columbus Circle was advertising their games alongside their clone machines. This suggests that the games were meant to be paired with their machines, which btw makes sense from a marketing standpoint.

At the end of the day, manufacturers of unauthorized products cannot guarantee 100% compatibility with "official" hardware. This has nothing to do with greed or disrespect for customers, and if there is an issue, then the folks developing those games should honestly just switch to a different publisher. That seems to be the obvious solution here.

Finally, to address one point, as it is something I take seriously as I don't want to have the reputation of myself or my products slandered:

QuoteBoggles the mind that somebody would think this, especially someone who's trying to break into the homebrew scene themselves. The implications are worrisome.

I have engineers involved with designing all of the products / PCBs that we use, and they are folks who are also heavily involved with Famicom / NES homebrew and/or indie scene. Furthermore, we are using the Famicom as the base machine.

I shouldn't even have to be discussing this here, and publicly, but I feel myself and my brand is being attacked, something that could have serious implications in the future for me, especially as this is now my day job, not just some sort of hobbyist project. Therefore, I kindly ask that you remove this quote from your post, before any reputational harm is done to my brand, especially when it isn't even true! Thanks.

Quote...with their promo pictures, Columbus Circle was advertising their games alongside their clone machines. This suggests that the games were meant to be paired with their machines, which btw makes sense from a marketing standpoint.

The fact that they're marketing it as such doesn't make what happened okay. When you're developing for a retro system, it only makes sense to target the actual retro system, and not a particular clone version of it. Unless you're also in the business of manufacturing those clone systems, at which point the consumer should start to ask some questions regarding compatibility and safety. This also applies to the RetroUSB AVS situation. At least I haven't heard of those carts being dangerous to other NES consoles.

If you want to go into full conspiracy theory territory, Columbus Circle's decision to use the cartridges they did was conscious will the full knowledge that they'd be harmful to other Famicom systems, so that buyers' original Famicoms and other clone systems would eventually be rendered inoperable, and they'd end up buying CC's own clone system. The other option is that they were ignorant about the danger. And if the case was just an unfortunate accident, why didn't they change the cartridge design immediately? I think they used the same type of cartridges for multiple releases, over several years. I'm actually not sure if they've changed it? Was that confirmed anywhere?

QuoteI have engineers involved with designing all of the products / PCBs that we use, and they are folks who are also heavily involved with Famicom / NES homebrew and/or indie scene. Furthermore, we are using the Famicom as the base machine.

If the original Famicom is indeed the base machine you're aiming at (something Columbus Circle was most assuredly not doing), then that's a good thing and there's no issue there. But as someone who has bought quite a few NES and FC homebrews, and intends to keep doing so, I think I'm allowed to express my concerns and views. Therefore, I will not be removing the statement at this moment.

QuoteThe fact that they're marketing it as such doesn't make what happened okay. When you're developing for a retro system, it only makes sense to target the actual retro system, and not a particular clone version of it. Unless you're also in the business of manufacturing those clone systems, at which point the consumer should start to ask some questions regarding compatibility and safety. This also applies to the RetroUSB AVS situation. At least I haven't heard of those carts being dangerous to other NES consoles.

Wait, so you are essentially saying it's wrong yet agreeing with me at the same time. As Columbus Circle was manufacturing clones, and then producing software to go with it.

I think it is fair for the consumer to ask questions, but we also need to see if the manufacturer is being honest or not with their marketing.

I just took a look now with the original 8Bit Music game from Columbus Circle. From what I can tell using a translator, the box lists the game as being "FC / FC compatible machines compatible". The manual states that the machine is guaranteed to work on their Famiclones, but that it might be incompatible with other FC compatible devices.

That being said, while it's obvious that they are marketing their games and clones together, they should have removed the initial "FC" part off of the box, as that would be misleading since there are potential compatibility problems. So they are in the wrong for doing that, though they would not be in the wrong for marketing their games for their clone machines alone.

QuoteIf you want to go into full conspiracy theory territory, Columbus Circle's decision to use the cartridges they did was conscious will the full knowledge that they'd be harmful to other Famicom systems, so that buyers' original Famicoms and other clone systems would eventually be rendered inoperable, and they'd end up buying CC's own clone system. The other option is that they were ignorant about the danger. And if the case was just an unfortunate accident, why didn't they change the cartridge design immediately? I think they used the same type of cartridges for multiple releases, over several years. I'm actually not sure if they've changed it? Was that confirmed anywhere?

I think the likely answer is as follows: the machines were made in China, so were the cartridges. Everyone knows that for better or for worse, almost every modern clone is a cheap, inaccurate rendition of the original hardware, which is being fabricated in China. Likely they weren't aware of the issue, or had the popular "chabuduo" stance, essentially that it's "good enough" or "close enough", without knowing that there could be safety issues. They likely had the game running on their clones, which were using the modern "standard", then threw it into a normal Famicom and saw that it "worked", and thus called it a day, likely not even aware of the situation at hand.

As mentioned earlier, it would have been wiser for them to mention that the cartridge was designed solely for their machines, and that compatibilities may exist with other hardware. This would be the most transparent way of doing things. There's tons of reasons why people might not want to use original Famicom hardware, btw, for example it not having AV plugs. So while their decision wasn't a good one for purists (and as I mentioned before, they shouldn't have listed FC compatibility on the box), if they wanted to make cartridges solely for their machines, so be it, weird business choice but that's their decision to make.

QuoteIf the original Famicom is indeed the base machine you're aiming at (something Columbus Circle was most assuredly not doing), then that's a good thing and there's no issue there. But as someone who has bought quite a few NES and FC homebrews, and intends to keep doing so, I think I'm allowed to express my concerns and views. Therefore, I will not be removing the statement at this moment.

The problem is that you made baseless assumptions about what I and my brand are doing, which is completely irrelevant to the conversation at hand regarding Columbus Circle and their business. Look, I've known you for years and have no personal issue with you, but it's not right to be making such slanderous accusations about a person, his livelihood, and his products.

QuoteWait, so you are essentially saying it's wrong yet agreeing with me at the same time. As Columbus Circle was manufacturing clones, and then producing software to go with it.

Sorry, I guess the meaning I had in my head didn't come across in text as I envisioned. I was trying to convey that in this situation, Columbus Circle's motive changed from creating a Famicom title, that the consumer would naturally assume to be the case, to creating a title that might work with a real Famicom. Like you said, the way they marketed it caused confusion.

Of course all of this drama is only because of the issues their carts caused with other systems. Had those issues not been present, nobody would care that they sell their own clone systems as well. But alas. I'm curious if they ever issued some explanation or even an apology to people that did end up with damaged systems due to their carts.

QuoteThe problem is that you made baseless assumptions about what I and my brand are doing, which is completely irrelevant to the conversation at hand regarding Columbus Circle and their business. Look, I've known you for years and have no personal issue with you, but it's not right to be making such slanderous accusations about a person, his livelihood, and his products.

I apologize if you feel that was a personal attack, it was not meant as such. But you came to Columbus Circle's defense when their problematic carts were mentioned, and you're someone about to publish FC homebrew carts. There was not an assumption made there, but a connection. As someone who collects and plays NES/FC homebrew games and talks about them online, I'm literally part of your target audience, so that was not an unreasonable concern to bring forth as a consumer and potential customer.

But since you've confirmed that you're using a real Famicom as a base for your project, and you've taken these potential hardware issues into account (I'm assuming, even if it wasn't explicitly stated), my worry on that front has been alleviated and I consider the matter settled. Maybe that's something you could use in your marketing efforts? Even if you can't 100% guarantee compatibility, stating that your game has been built for and tested with original systems would carry some weight.

I find it difficult to trust Columbus Circle at all, so even if they do have some neat releases I don't want to put any of them near my consoles. From my point of view, homebrew developers distancing themselves from Columbus Circle and their practices is a good thing.

QuoteSorry, I guess the meaning I had in my head didn't come across in text as I envisioned. I was trying to convey that in this situation, Columbus Circle's motive changed from creating a Famicom title, that the consumer would naturally assume to be the case, to creating a title that might work with a real Famicom. Like you said, the way they marketed it caused confusion.

Yes, I have no idea why the Japanese developers got behind that outfit, but knowing what I do about Chinese culture, paired with all of the modern clones being the cheap 3.3 volts or whatever, I reckon they just ultimately manufactured the game for their clones, threw it in a real Famicom for five minutes, saw that it worked, and called it a day without even considering (or knowing) the ramifications. Who knows why they doubled down with the later releases.

QuoteOf course all of this drama is only because of the issues their carts caused with other systems. Had those issues not been present, nobody would care that they sell their own clone systems as well. But alas. I'm curious if they ever issued some explanation or even an apology to people that did end up with damaged systems due to their carts.

I'd be curious even as to how many damaged systems there were. I personally love chiptune and hope to convince some friends to compose and release some chiptune albums, but at the same time, I'd think that something like this would get limited use from the average user. As such, perhaps Columbus Circle just weighed the odds and figured that if the average person uses the cartridge twenty times, and damage generally occurs after 100 times, then just go with it, especially if they were selling their own clones as well. Who really knows, though it's definitely an interesting discussion.

QuoteI apologize if you feel that was a personal attack, it was not meant as such. But you came to Columbus Circle's defense when their problematic carts were mentioned, and you're someone about to publish FC homebrew carts. There was not an assumption made there, but a connection. As someone who collects and plays NES/FC homebrew games and talks about them online, I'm literally part of your target audience, so that was not an unreasonable concern to bring forth as a consumer and potential customer.

I've been publishing homebrew games since 2019. ;) 

Just to show you where I am coming from, to offer another perspective:

Sachen made games and also had their own clones.
Bit Corp made games and also had their own clones.
Micro Genius made games and also had their own clones.
Aaronix (who actually had a license from Sega) made clones and also had made games.
Era Tech (a Hudson Soft subsidiary) made a clone and also released a game.
Retro USB made games and also made a clone.

If I thought about it harder, the list would likely go on. I guess what I am saying is, a lot of companies released clones and then also released software. Bit Corp is a notorious situation (IIRC something about their game Duck playing properly), but I reckon most of these companies made sure that the games they developed worked properly on their hardware, with other hardware compatibility being secondary. Consider these to be unlicensed or bootleg companies or whatever, but with the exception of Aaronix, they were all developing and releasing original software, and as such, I consider them to be some of the earliest of indie developers. If Columbus Circle didn't mention the singular "FC" on their box and only stated "For FC compatible machines" rather than "For FC / FC compatible machines", I think the sin would not have been as big, even though in this day and age I do think it is a silly business decision.

So that's where I am coming from. Maybe someday I might release a Famicom clone that has an 80 pin cartridge slot, and then runs cartridges with 80 pins. It's a stupid decision business wise, as you would be cutting off a lot of potential customers, but if it were marketed as such, don't see anything wrong with that. If you release clones and games, it is likely you are developing games to be used on your clones. The issue comes from when it is specifically marketed for a machine and then is incompatible with that machine. As I said, after seeing the box note, I do fault Columbus Circle partially, though I don't think it was intentional.

QuoteI find it difficult to trust Columbus Circle at all, so even if they do have some neat releases I don't want to put any of them near my consoles. From my point of view, homebrew developers distancing themselves from Columbus Circle and their practices is a good thing.

Like I said above, I feel the practice is much more common than what it appears at first blush. The key though is definitely transparency, and for someone like myself, I want to be marketing to as many people as possible hence using official hardware as the standard.

I accept your apology btw, sorry if I came across a bit heavy handed but you just need to keep in mind that I literally quit my day job to go fulltime and all in at this, so it really could affect me negatively if something gets spread around about the games I am publishing. If it is something true / something that I am doing, that's one thing, I'm fine with honest feedback and I am aware of some weak points and not saying I am the best; however, when it is something I am not even doing, then that is what gets me upset.

Making homebrew that is fully compatible (on par with licensed games) with NES isn't exactly hard. It isn't a terribly complicated system and as Ghegs said we know pretty much everything worth knowing about it, and actually we know more than many licensed developers back in the day did.

The Famicom's patents has long ran out, there are no legal reasons you can't make a 100% compatible game. Even for NES, the lockout-chip has been legally cloned so there is nothing stopping you from making 100% compatible and legal NES games.

When making a Famicom/NES game there are a few things that you can do wrong if you are not aware of them (some things that some licensed games did not do correctly but passed Nintendo's approval anyway for whatever reason) but otherwise it's just conforming to common sense and basic principles of electronics. You should also ideally test it on multiple systems to assure that the game doesn't rely on any quirks of a particular version.

Colombus Circle did not conform to basic principles of electronics making it dangerous to itself as well as the console it's used on, which implies carelessness from their part.
With the Famicom being patent-free Colombus Circle can of course target whatever off-shot variant of the Famicom they want, but their sloppily built and harmful ROM cartridges can obviously not be tolerated anymore than such low-quality bootlegs using the same tactics are. In the end it's just a piece of faulty engineering that is marketed while they are trying to hide that fact.

Quote from: P on August 10, 2024, 03:33:38 pmMaking homebrew that is fully compatible (on par with licensed games) with NES isn't exactly hard. It isn't a terribly complicated system and as Ghegs said we know pretty much everything worth knowing about it, and actually we know more than many licensed developers back in the day did.

You do realize that licensed or not has absolutely nothing to do with quality, right? This is a huge misconception but it's 2024 now, so it's time we look at it from a factual standpoint.

Licensed just meant that the company paid a fee to Nintendo...that's it. Software such as Videomation was both licensed and unlicensed, depending on the region. Or are you talking about the fabrication itself, which Nintendo would do? But if the latter, then the following paragraph doesn't make sense...

QuoteWhen making a Famicom/NES game there are a few things that you can do wrong if you are not aware of them (some things that some licensed games did not do correctly but passed Nintendo's approval anyway for whatever reason) but otherwise it's just conforming to common sense and basic principles of electronics. You should also ideally test it on multiple systems to assure that the game doesn't rely on any quirks of a particular version

You see the problem?

Quote from: P on August 10, 2024, 03:33:38 pmColombus Circle did not conform to basic principles of electronics making it dangerous to itself as well as the console it's used on, which implies carelessness from their part.

With the Famicom being patent-free Colombus Circle can of course target whatever off-shot variant of the Famicom they want, but their sloppily built and harmful ROM cartridges can obviously not be tolerated anymore than such low-quality bootlegs using the same tactics are. In the end it's just a piece of faulty engineering that is marketed while they are trying to hide that fact.

Are or are not the cartridges damaging and faulty when used on Columbus Circus's own clones? If their clones are 3.3 volt matching the cartridges, then how can you say that the cartridges are dangerous and shoddy electronic craftsmanship?

If I made NES games and stuck them on 80-pin cartridges for play in my customized NES clone, which has an 80 pin cartridge slot, what exactly is the problem? It's happened time and again, even companies took the NES architecture and expanded upon it with the one bus, etc..

There are only two issues here, and one concerns neither you or I

1. Using a clone as the default for the game is an ignorant move, from business perspective. It's the same as if I did 80 pin cartridges. It's an ignorant business move, but at the end of the day, the company*should* have the autonomy to do this, even if it isn't what *we* would prefer.

2. Advertising about the FC on the box. This is the *sin* they committed, as it suggests full compatibility. If they removed this text and just said (in Japanese of course), "Compatible with modern Famiclones such as ours" theh there would have been no problem whatsoever, aside from butthurt reactions from hobbyists.

Sorry, I'm just looking at things from an unbiased manner. I hate onions on pizza, but if a default pizza in Sweden or Finland comes with onions on it, this doesn't mean that Finns and Swedes can't make pizza. ;)  If it were subsequently advertised as "Real Italian authentic taste" then there would be an issue.

Quote from: fcgamer on August 13, 2024, 06:06:57 am

Quote from: P on August 10, 2024, 03:33:38 pmMaking homebrew that is fully compatible (on par with licensed games) with NES isn't exactly hard. It isn't a terribly complicated system and as Ghegs said we know pretty much everything worth knowing about it, and actually we know more than many licensed developers back in the day did.

You do realize that licensed or not has absolutely nothing to do with quality, right? This is a huge misconception but it's 2024 now, so it's time we look at it from a factual standpoint.

Licensed just meant that the company paid a fee to Nintendo...that's it. Software such as Videomation was both licensed and unlicensed, depending on the region. Or are you talking about the fabrication itself, which Nintendo would do? But if the latter, then the following paragraph doesn't make sense...

QuoteWhen making a Famicom/NES game there are a few things that you can do wrong if you are not aware of them (some things that some licensed games did not do correctly but passed Nintendo's approval anyway for whatever reason) but otherwise it's just conforming to common sense and basic principles of electronics. You should also ideally test it on multiple systems to assure that the game doesn't rely on any quirks of a particular version

You see the problem?

Nintendo had, and still has, some sort of quality check for licensed games which is a basic list of requirements each game must pass before they are allowed to be released. I don't know exactly when it formally started as not all Famicom/NES games follows all the rules found in later such lists by Nintendo (like that a game must be able to pause using the START button which for example Punch-Out doesn't conform to), but I think it's quite clear that they didn't allow just any random coded thing to be released as a commercial game for the system as Nintendo was very aware of what the Atari-shock could do.
Some games unintentionally do some things that are considered bad, these are things that are hard to detect and Nintendo probably didn't have time to check every line of code for every submitted game (if they even looked at the source at all). But I think Nintendo was more concerned that someone didn't release another ET for the Famicom.

That's why I'm saying that making a homebrew that has the same level of compatibility as a typical licensed game for the system isn't very hard with all the information and tools we got today. That means there are not that many rules to follow to get it right and a lot of it is just common sense.

Quote from: fcgamer on August 13, 2024, 06:28:27 am

Quote from: P on August 10, 2024, 03:33:38 pmColombus Circle did not conform to basic principles of electronics making it dangerous to itself as well as the console it's used on, which implies carelessness from their part.

With the Famicom being patent-free Colombus Circle can of course target whatever off-shot variant of the Famicom they want, but their sloppily built and harmful ROM cartridges can obviously not be tolerated anymore than such low-quality bootlegs using the same tactics are. In the end it's just a piece of faulty engineering that is marketed while they are trying to hide that fact.

Are or are not the cartridges damaging and faulty when used on Columbus Circus's own clones? If their clones are 3.3 volt matching the cartridges, then how can you say that the cartridges are dangerous and shoddy electronic craftsmanship?

Well, I've never seen their clones nor do I know if they are fully 3.3 V systems or if their cartridges are fully 3.3 V, nor do I know if it's designed to be able to play 5 V cartridges as well. But making a Famicom-style 60-pin cartridge and marketing as such, despite using dangerous engineering, with just a small note that it is only guaranteed to work with their own Famiclone is a business move in very poor taste IMHO.
AFAIK it's not like they used large warning signs telling people that their game must only be used with 3.3 V Famiclones which would be the right thing to do at the very least. Even better, if we consider their Famiclone truly a standalone system incompatible with the official Famicom specification, would be to design their Famiclone to make it physically incompatible with 60-pin Famicom carts from the start, but that would hurt the system's library as it could only play their own few games and not the 1000+ existing 60-pin cartridges, so of course they couldn't do that.
They could also make their Famiclone safe with both 5 V and 3.3 V cartridges and I have no idea if they did, I only know that they are spreading cartridges that are not safe with 5 V systems and they have nothing but poor excuses to defend it with. That's the crime they are accused of.

I'm not sure how your view is more unbiased than mine. I think it's a subjective matter so I'm not sure it can be viewed objectively. I understand what you are saying but I can't help but feel like they tried to get away with their crime of not manufacturing it with the standards the customer would expect.

In the end their actions just results in hardware being hurt which would be unacceptable in so many other art-forms/hobbies/contexts, I don't see why video games should be an exception and why video game hobbyists would just be "butthurt" for not accepting asshole moves.

Quote from: P on August 14, 2024, 05:47:25 pmNintendo had, and still has, some sort of quality check for licensed games which is a basic list of requirements each game must pass before they are allowed to be released. I don't know exactly when it formally started as not all Famicom/NES games follows all the rules found in later such lists by Nintendo (like that a game must be able to pause using the START button which for example Punch-Out doesn't conform to), but I think it's quite clear that they didn't allow just any random coded thing to be released as a commercial game for the system as Nintendo was very aware of what the Atari-shock could do.
Some games unintentionally do some things that are considered bad, these are things that are hard to detect and Nintendo probably didn't have time to check every line of code for every submitted game (if they even looked at the source at all). But I think Nintendo was more concerned that someone didn't release another ET for the Famicom.

On Licensing:

The reason that Nintendo's licensing is mostly seen for what it was -- a maneauver to control manufacturing and a way to bilk more money from developers, is due to situations such as these, which *cannot* be explained away in any good manner.

Videomation: This game was licensed for the Nintendo NES in North America; however, the Famicom release is unauthorized / unlicensed. The Famicom release is not a pirate / bootleg though, and was authorized by the company that had the IP. The game was also released in Brazil for the NES, and this was also *likely* to have been authorized by the IP holder. So this crappy drawing game is both licensed and unlicensed, depending on the region.

(https://i.postimg.cc/4nnZB2BR/images.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/PNfNhMyS/22413192321459-219.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/TKv62dGT/superg-png-24d98cbd4eb844accffa14f4056c110a.png) (https://postimages.org/)


Here's another example:

Time Diver Eon Man would have undoubtedly been a licensed Nintendo title, if it had been released. It was even advertised in Nintendo Power magazine!

(https://i.postimg.cc/DW23sx8D/RCO097-1462738170.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Oh wait, actually it didn't go unreleased at all! There's a Famicom version, but it is unauthorized, yet widely considered to have been authorized by the developers.

(https://i.postimg.cc/gXTCCdNF/images-1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

So once again, licensed and unlicensed.

Then there are games such as the three licensed Tengen titles, which obviously became unlicensed when Tengen and Nintendo parted ways; however, these titles are scrubbed from any official Nintendo lists, actually stuff like Mike Tyson's was too. There have also been debates about whether things such as the Nintendo test cartridges / Nintendo World Champ (not the Switch rerelease) are licensed or not. It seems they would not have been licensed, but then again, does Nintendo themselves really need to license their own products?

Quote from: P on August 14, 2024, 05:47:25 pmThat's why I'm saying that making a homebrew that has the same level of compatibility as a typical licensed game for the system isn't very hard with all the information and tools we got today. That means there are not that many rules to follow to get it right and a lot of it is just common sense.

I don't think this is a situation regarding whether something is "easy" or "difficult" to do. Were Columbus Circle actually involved in developing the game, or were they just the publisher / producer, with Riki and his team doing all of the development stuff themselves? So I'm not really sure how ease of ability to get things "right" is relevant to the discussion; however, I'll go with it for a minute.

I guess what I would ask is "What is the actual problem if a developer knowingly decides to develop a ROM that is only compatible in NESticle emulators, for example? Is the problem compatibility issues? Nope, not if it were a conscious decision made by the developer. Lack of users? Once again, nope, the developer of this "NESticle-only" compatible ROM would have been full aware before taking this venture. So what would be the harm? The only harm would come from those insisting to use a more accurate game emulator to run their NES ROMs. That being said, why shouldn't it be within the right of a developer to make a game that is only compatible on NESticle emulator, if he or she desires?

Quote from: P on August 14, 2024, 05:47:25 pmWell, I've never seen their clones nor do I know if they are fully 3.3 V systems or if their cartridges are fully 3.3 V, nor do I know if it's designed to be able to play 5 V cartridges as well. But making a Famicom-style 60-pin cartridge and marketing as such, despite using dangerous engineering, with just a small note that it is only guaranteed to work with their own Famiclone is a business move in very poor taste IMHO.
AFAIK it's not like they used large warning signs telling people that their game must only be used with 3.3 V Famiclones which would be the right thing to do at the very least. Even better, if we consider their Famiclone truly a standalone system incompatible with the official Famicom specification, would be to design their Famiclone to make it physically incompatible with 60-pin Famicom carts from the start, but that would hurt the system's library as it could only play their own few games and not the 1000+ existing 60-pin cartridges, so of course they couldn't do that.
They could also make their Famiclone safe with both 5 V and 3.3 V cartridges and I have no idea if they did, I only know that they are spreading cartridges that are not safe with 5 V systems and they have nothing but poor excuses to defend it with. That's the crime they are accused of.

They could also make their Famiclone safe with both 5 V and 3.3 V cartridges and I have no idea if they did, I only know that they are spreading cartridges that are not safe with 5 V systems and they have nothing but poor excuses to defend it with. That's the crime they are accused of.[/quote]

To make an accurate assessment, what someone would have to do is purchase one of their clones, and see if it was designed solely for 3.3 V cartridges, for 5 V cartridges, or for both; however, it is most likely at least 3.3 V compatible, as from my understanding that has somewhat become the "standard" for this modern Famiclones coming out of the PRC.

Things get interesting though, as I'd be interested in knowing the percentage of people (not collectors, people) running games off of original hardware versus clones, and to another extent, modern clones. This forum, we are purists and to some degree collectors, so we would be using real machines to be running the games; however, I honestly suspect that this number is much, much lower when we get outside and start looking around at more casual gamers.

This is anecdotal, but I know a ton of people back home running their NES games off of crappy "cheap" clones as they are just casual, tossing out their NES machines years ago due to the broken pin connectors. Similarly, casuals don't want to deal with the RF bullshit on modern televisions, people have concerns for hi-def, etc. There's a reason Book Off was selling their own clones (which ironically enough seem to have been manufactured by Columbus Circle). 

When you look at it from this viewpoint, it starts to become much less cut and dry.

Quote from: P on August 14, 2024, 05:47:25 pmI'm not sure how your view is more unbiased than mine. I think it's a subjective matter so I'm not sure it can be viewed objectively. I understand what you are saying but I can't help but feel like they tried to get away with their crime of not manufacturing it with the standards the customer would expect.

My view is more unbiased, as I am trying to take a stance that is not a collector-normative stance. As an aside, I made fliers and passed them around to all of my colleagues before quitting my job, a few months back. The fliers were asking about old games, and then had my contact information. Literally everyone thought I was nuts to be asking about wanting to buy these games, and a few of the folks had even recommended to me places where I could purchase modern clone machines with modern clone games (i.e. Aliexpress). It was a reality check, i.e. despite the fact that this is our world, for 99.9% of people, they aren't even playing these old games, and then the ones that do, by now even a smaller portion is going "full purist" running real cartridges off real hardware.

So when we complain about Columbus Circle products, for example, we are viewing it from the view of collectors, like I said, a collector-normative stance; however, the reality is that we are just a tiny portion of all gamers, or even the world population, which shows our inherant bias and the flaws that come from it.

Quote from: P on August 14, 2024, 05:47:25 pmIn the end their actions just results in hardware being hurt which would be unacceptable in so many other art-forms/hobbies/contexts, I don't see why video games should be an exception and why video game hobbyists would just be "butthurt" for not accepting asshole moves.

It's mostly butthurt because as I mentioned before, we are viewing things from a collector-normative viewpoint. We are going in making the assumption that all new games that run NES / Famicom compatible hardware should run flawlessly on our old machines, period. We are taking that as some God-given right, furthermore stating that "it's easy to do, the knowledge is out there too!" The issue though, is this just reeks of entitlement.

We fail to take into consideration that Columbus Circle's first and foremost objective likely was to insure compatibility with the machines they were selling. We ignore any sort of cost factors; once again, the lay person might purchase a CC clone and the games, if seeing them for sale at a supermarket checkout or on a display, whereas a collector would just purchase a single cartridge. So we ignore costs and profits, and we demand that a Chinese company market their products to the smallest niche possible. Stop and think about it for a minute, it just starts sounding like a bunch of bratty, screaming children after a point.

And therein is where my issue lies. When I want to play (hear) the game, I just throw it into one of my 3.3 V clones. Similarly, this would be a huge market point for a hobbyist to create an adaptor and sell it to correct this issue for those running games on the 5 V machines. Instead though, it's just complaints from those who subscribe to this collector-normative viewpoint that the majority of gamers would be using original hardware (guess what, I think most aren't...)

Yes, Columbus Circle should not list "FC" on their box since there is a compatibility issue there; that is misleading. Whether it was an oversight or intentional, it's really hard to tell. Otherwise, there's nothing "wrong" with what they did.

Does Columbus Circles decisions make perfect business sense? Not necessarily, but neither does the guy developing a ROM specifically for NESticle only, or the guy making NES games for 80 pin cartridges so that they are only compatible with his 80 pin game console. However, while against the "collector-norm", I believe everyone has the right to do as they please, as long as it is clearly marked for what it is.

Final Thoughts:

1. I'm just a live and let live kind of guy.

2. I'd consider Columbus Circle to be indie, not homebrew (yes I think we are getting to the point where the two should be separated)

3. I always use official hardware as the "standard" for any games I develop / produce.

Quote from: fcgamer on August 14, 2024, 11:43:37 pmOn Licensing:

The reason that Nintendo's licensing is mostly seen for what it was -- a maneauver to control manufacturing and a way to bilk more money from developers, is due to situations such as these, which *cannot* be explained away in any good manner.
...
Then there are games such as the three licensed Tengen titles, which obviously became unlicensed when Tengen and Nintendo parted ways; however, these titles are scrubbed from any official Nintendo lists, actually stuff like Mike Tyson's was too. There have also been debates about whether things such as the Nintendo test cartridges / Nintendo World Champ (not the Switch rerelease) are licensed or not. It seems they would not have been licensed, but then again, does Nintendo themselves really need to license their own products?

I'm not sure what you are trying to say? There are licensed and unlicensed games, both good and bad, we all know that already. I don't see how it has anything to do with my point.

Quote from: fcgamer on August 14, 2024, 11:43:37 pm

Quote from: P on August 14, 2024, 05:47:25 pmThat's why I'm saying that making a homebrew that has the same level of compatibility...

I don't think this is a situation regarding whether something is "easy" or "difficult" to do...

You and Ghegs were talking about how an unlicensed aftermarket game like this couldn't very easily be 100% compatible with the official hardware, so I shared my own experience in that, but I snowed in on the software aspect a bit too much which isn't where Columbus Circle or Riki did anything wrong AFAIK, it was the hardware aspect they did wrong, so yeah I got a little derailed off-topic.

Quote from: fcgamer on August 14, 2024, 11:43:37 pmhowever, it is most likely at least 3.3 V compatible, as from my understanding that has somewhat become the "standard" for this modern Famiclones coming out of the PRC.

And that is definitely an engineering problem unless these systems are only used with 3.3 V cartridges perhaps, but they are evidently not.

Quote from: fcgamer on August 14, 2024, 11:43:37 pmThings get interesting though, as I'd be interested in knowing the percentage of people (not collectors, people) running games off of original hardware versus clones, and to another extent, modern clones. This forum, we are purists and to some degree collectors, so we would be using real machines to be running the games; however, I honestly suspect that this number is much, much lower when we get outside and start looking around at more casual gamers...

Well, people would normally use the simplest method to be able to play these old (and new) games. I'm no different, when my NES was tossed out I resorted to emulators for many years until I bought a Famicom and later a disk system to get back my childhood collection in Famicom form. Then flashcarts and disk emulators came and made everything much more accessible, but still probably niche to the general masses. It is a real culture though with a working economy that shouldn't be taken lightly.

Quote from: fcgamer on August 14, 2024, 11:43:37 pmMy view is more unbiased, as I am trying to take a stance that is not a collector-normative stance.
...
...99.9% of people, they aren't even playing these old games, and then the ones that do, by now even a smaller portion is going "full purist" running real cartridges off real hardware.
...
...the reality is that we are just a tiny portion of all gamers, or even the world population, which shows our inherent bias and the flaws that come from it.

OK now I understand what you meant by unbiased. You are trying to give it a more neutral view from a general person not engaged very deeply in the video game community. I agree that there is always value in trying to see things from a more neutral perspective in order not to get blinded. But it is also my opinion that the people with the knowledge and enthusiasm necessary to preserve the hobby needs to be consulted with on serious matters like this. People not playing old games might not care much about it, so they wouldn't have an opinion about it in the first place. This is also the same as in about any other hobby.

Quote from: fcgamer on August 14, 2024, 11:43:37 pmIt's mostly butthurt because as I mentioned before, we are viewing things from a collector-normative viewpoint. We are going in making the assumption that all new games that run NES / Famicom compatible hardware should run flawlessly on our old machines, period. We are taking that as some God-given right, furthermore stating that "it's easy to do, the knowledge is out there too!" The issue though, is this just reeks of entitlement.
...
...a collector would just purchase a single cartridge. So we ignore costs and profits, and we demand that a Chinese company market their products to the smallest niche possible. Stop and think about it for a minute, it just starts sounding like a bunch of bratty, screaming children after a point.
...

You seem to try very hard to belittle our opinions by presenting us like whiny kids that are angry for not getting what we ourselves considers us to be entitled to.
This isn't a child's game, many people are making a living out of this hobby in one way or another, including you as you said yourself. We are keeping our eyes on each others and when someone is cheating he will have to face the wrath of the others.

I have built Famicom cartridges and I'm very well aware of the cost factor. Especially sourcing the necessary 5 V parts is not easy or affordable in many cases as they are often no longer produced in favor of 3.3 V parts. The proper way to do it with 3.3 V parts is to use voltage translator circuits which are not free and adds additional complexity. Not being able to afford it is just an excuse and not a reason. If they can't do it the normal way they have no choice but try to find another valid solution to the problem. But instead they chose to take the easy way and cheat, and now they will have to face the consequences. And the consequences is our vocal criticism which in turn results in hurting their sales, rightfully so for the damage they did to us.

So this is much more than just some fans complaining on customer service, it affects the whole community emotionally, economically and culturally.

Quote from: P on August 15, 2024, 02:27:24 pmAnd that is definitely an engineering problem unless these systems are only used with 3.3 V cartridges perhaps, but they are evidently not.

I disagree on this point. I own a few cartridges the same as the type purchased on Aliexpress, the 500 in 1s and stuff. They are most surely 3.3 V, they won't even work on my Famicom hardware. If someone had one of those cartridges with more or less all the games they played as a kid, along with a game machine that more or less looks like what they had as a child, for most people it would be enough, and if it weren't, then buy a few more Aliexpress cheapies.

Quote from: P on August 15, 2024, 02:27:24 pmWell, people would normally use the simplest method to be able to play these old (and new) games. I'm no different, when my NES was tossed out I resorted to emulators for many years until I bought a Famicom and later a disk system to get back my childhood collection in Famicom form. Then flashcarts and disk emulators came and made everything much more accessible, but still probably niche to the general masses. It is a real culture though with a working economy that shouldn't be taken lightly.

See above...for a lot of casual gamers, a few multis with the games they played as a child and a machine is what they want. Or a flashcart and a machine. Or an emulator and some ROMs. For some reason this seems to get dismissed a lot by the camp complaining about the Columbus Circle games, i.e. that there are a TON of gamers solely playing 3.3 V cartridges on their 3.3 V machines.

It has become the new "standard", and if the companies are developing 3.3 V cartridges to go alongside their 3.3 V machines, then I am not sure how one can argue that it is electronic engineering.

To give an example, look at the scenario of the USB formats. I personally hate that there is such an array of USB sizes, Micro and Mini and everything else. It's a pain in the ass trying to have the right cable and what not; however, it's just an inevitable part of technology evolving over time.

Quote from: P on August 15, 2024, 02:27:24 pmOK now I understand what you meant by unbiased. You are trying to give it a more neutral view from a general person not engaged very deeply in the video game community. I agree that there is always value in trying to see things from a more neutral perspective in order not to get blinded. But it is also my opinion that the people with the knowledge and enthusiasm necessary to preserve the hobby needs to be consulted with on serious matters like this. People not playing old games might not care much about it, so they wouldn't have an opinion about it in the first place. This is also the same as in about any other hobby.

Not exactly - a lot of these people are gamers, just not on the same level as us in terms of gaming / collecting / developing / etc.

And that brings up a somewhat interesting point, unlike in the west with the NES, there was never a period where the Famicom / clones "died". Those machines and some sort of cartridges for those machines was always available from the birthtime up until now. So again in contrast to the NES (which was revived due to the efforts of hobbyists), this is a much larger market that isn't just ran by hobbyists.

Quote from: P on August 15, 2024, 02:27:24 pmYou seem to try very hard to belittle our opinions by presenting us like whiny kids that are angry for not getting what we ourselves considers us to be entitled to.
This isn't a child's game, many people are making a living out of this hobby in one way or another, including you as you said yourself. We are keeping our eyes on each others and when someone is cheating he will have to face the wrath of the others.

I have built Famicom cartridges and I'm very well aware of the cost factor. Especially sourcing the necessary 5 V parts is not easy or affordable in many cases as they are often no longer produced in favor of 3.3 V parts. The proper way to do it with 3.3 V parts is to use voltage translator circuits which are not free and adds additional complexity. Not being able to afford it is just an excuse and not a reason. If they can't do it the normal way they have no choice but try to find another valid solution to the problem. But instead they chose to take the easy way and cheat, and now they will have to face the consequences. And the consequences is our vocal criticism which in turn results in hurting their sales, rightfully so for the damage they did to us.

It's not about trying to belittle the viewpoints of people such as yourself and Ghegs, rather it is about looking at the matter objectively, as here's what I see:

A. Somewhere in the late 90s, NOAC machines became really popular in many parts of the world, and I am guessing that somewhere around this change is also when machines switched from 5 V to 3.3 V for clones.

B. The NES dies in the west, but Famiclone machines and cartridges to use with these machines continue to be manufactured in poorer regions, while the cost of manufacture keeps diminishing.

C. Here comes the 2000s, more games and more Famiclones are produced.

D. Around 2016 or so, there's a huge retro boom in the States / west and now there's a lot more homebrew.

E. NOW: In the west: NESMaker brings about yet another surge of indie games, and now it's become such a market for hobbyists and day programmers as well. Avenues such as being able to publish on the Switch just make it even more appealing.

NOW (FAMICOM / FAMICLONE) regions: There's some homebrew activity in Japan, but nothing compared to that in the west, the games aren't very accessible to outsiders, and production is limited. In other regions, homebrew / indie is more or less nonexistent. Despite that, Famiclones with cartridges are still being marketed and purchased, with people wanting to play the games they enjoyed as children.

Conclusion: You see, the NES was dead and then revived by fans, the Famicom / Famiclones never had a period where it died. So we cannot draw a 1:1 comparison here over the demographics of buyers.

QuoteSo this is much more than just some fans complaining on customer service, it affects the whole community emotionally, economically and culturally.

It's not though. Average gamers are satisfied with their 3.3 clone and multicart - if they weren't, that stuff wouldn't continue to be manufactured. And like it or not, average gamers likely make up the bulk of the market here, compared to in the west where the market is literally being propped up by hobbyists (I mean, the NES already died once...)

In conclusion, it goes back to the same reason that there's nothing wrong if a company makes 80 pin cartridges for their 80 pin machines, or if a developer purposely creates a ROM that will only run on NESticle - it may be a weird choice, but there is nothing wrong with it, and I personally feel that it is within the rights for people to do such, even if it is not what I prefer or feel is "right"

That said, Columbus Circle does not get off scot-free though. Their sin is that on the side of the box it says FC / FC Clones Compatible. This would be misleading, and therefore is a problem. If they changed their boxes to read "FC Clones Compatible" then no one should find any fault in what they did.

Quote from: fcgamer on August 15, 2024, 08:27:42 pm

Quote from: P on August 15, 2024, 02:27:24 pmAnd that is definitely an engineering problem unless these systems are only used with 3.3 V cartridges perhaps, but they are evidently not.

I disagree on this point. I own a few cartridges the same as the type purchased on Aliexpress, the 500 in 1s and stuff. They are most surely 3.3 V, they won't even work on my Famicom hardware.

I'm confused, you might have a point in that they could be considered their own thing if they are only used for 3.3 V carts, but then again you did say yourself that people are using them for playing their childhood NES games, which seems to me to suggest that people are using them to play all types 60-pin cartridges, even the licensed ones which we know are all designed for 5 V logic.

Quote from: fcgamer on August 15, 2024, 08:27:42 pm...
For some reason this seems to get dismissed a lot by the camp complaining about the Columbus Circle games, i.e. that there are a TON of gamers solely playing 3.3 V cartridges on their 3.3 V machines.

It has become the new "standard", and if the companies are developing 3.3 V cartridges to go alongside their 3.3 V machines, then I am not sure how one can argue that it is electronic engineering.

But at the time when this started to become a "new standard" the old 5 V Famiclones were most likely still very numerous, and most older ROM cartridges (licensed and unlicensed alike) in circulation at the time was also using 5 V parts right?
So the problem must have already existed during this shift to 3.3 V parts, unless they took care to make them dual compatible but as far as we know there started to appear many 3.3 V cart at some point which would damage the older consoles (Famicoms and Famiclones alike).
If that was the case it sounds to me more like poor engineering than what a proper upgrade to using more modern parts would take.

Quote from: fcgamer on August 15, 2024, 08:27:42 pm

Quote from: P on August 15, 2024, 02:27:24 pm...
But it is also my opinion that the people with the knowledge and enthusiasm necessary to preserve the hobby needs to be consulted with on serious matters like this. People not playing old games might not care much about it, so they wouldn't have an opinion about it in the first place. This is also the same as in about any other hobby.

Not exactly - a lot of these people are gamers, just not on the same level as us in terms of gaming / collecting / developing / etc.

Well I never tried to say they aren't gamers and this is besides the point anyway.

Quote from: fcgamer on August 15, 2024, 08:27:42 pmAnd that brings up a somewhat interesting point, unlike in the west with the NES, there was never a period where the Famicom / clones "died".
...
So again in contrast to the NES (which was revived due to the efforts of hobbyists), this is a much larger market that isn't just ran by hobbyists.

That doesn't make the Famicom/NES hobbyist culture where the Famicom never died any less significant. The Famiclone culture is also a part of this division of the gaming community and is affected by it much the same way.

Quote from: fcgamer on August 15, 2024, 08:27:42 pmIt's not about trying to belittle the viewpoints of people such as yourself and Ghegs, rather it is about looking at the matter objectively...

Then why did you say it sounds like we are whiny kids? I don't think our viewpoints sounds unreasonable from an unbiased view. And as I said before, a subjective matter can't be looked on objectively (or vice versa for an objective matter), for a subjective matter there are no facts only opinions, you can't say only one side is right and not the other. You said we sound like we think our opinion is universally right by holy powers, then you present this other opinion as being "objective" which to me sounds like you are just trying to make it appear universally right.

Quote from: fcgamer on August 15, 2024, 08:27:42 pm

Quote from: P on August 15, 2024, 02:27:24 pmSo this is much more than just some fans complaining on customer service, it affects the whole community emotionally, economically and culturally.

It's not though. Average gamers are satisfied with their 3.3 clone and multicart - if they weren't, that stuff wouldn't continue to be manufactured.
...
In conclusion, it goes back to the same reason that there's nothing wrong if a company makes 80 pin cartridges for their 80 pin machines...

So you are saying because the average gamer doesn't understand the problem and is happy anyway it doesn't affect the whole gaming community? But yet you do agree that this type of engineering is causing damage to the old hardware? That's where the problem lies and it affects us all directly or indirectly on many levels, that's why we think it's unacceptable.

Quote from: fcgamer on August 15, 2024, 08:27:42 pmThat said, Columbus Circle does not get off scot-free though. Their sin is that on the side of the box it says FC / FC Clones Compatible. This would be misleading, and therefore is a problem. If they changed their boxes to read "FC Clones Compatible" then no one should find any fault in what they did.

Well, I guess I can agree to that. I think they should have taken more measures to make sure people are not using it on the wrong hardware though considering how easy it still is to find used Famicoms and games in Japan.

Quote from: P on August 16, 2024, 05:08:26 pmI'm confused, you might have a point in that they could be considered their own thing if they are only used for 3.3 V carts, but then again you did say yourself that people are using them for playing their childhood NES games, which seems to me to suggest that people are using them to play all types 60-pin cartridges, even the licensed ones which we know are all designed for 5 V logic.

People are buying these clones and at the same time they are purchasing modern Aliexpress multicarts to go with. They are buying these multicarts that contain 500+ games on them to play the games they loved playing when they were a child. Sorry if I worded it in a way to suggest they were using the actual cartridges from their childhood...those have in many cases been tossed or sold, along with their childhood machine, hence the purchasing of these new shiny 3.3 V machines with multicart. It's actually a good deal for many, too, at just less than $50 to get a new machine that doesn't look dirty, plus one or two multicart cartridges containing their favorite games.

Quote from: P on August 16, 2024, 05:08:26 pmBut at the time when this started to become a "new standard" the old 5 V Famiclones were most likely still very numerous, and most older ROM cartridges (licensed and unlicensed alike) in circulation at the time was also using 5 V parts right?
So the problem must have already existed during this shift to 3.3 V parts, unless they took care to make them dual compatible but as far as we know there started to appear many 3.3 V cart at some point which would damage the older consoles (Famicoms and Famiclones alike).
If that was the case it sounds to me more like poor engineering than what a proper upgrade to using more modern parts would take.

There is always going to be some overlap between the different technology periods, think about USB cables for example. Furthermore, after having our discussion, I just realized that the companies did address this compatibility issue, but more on that later.

Quote from: P on August 16, 2024, 05:08:26 pmThat doesn't make the Famicom/NES hobbyist culture where the Famicom never died any less significant. The Famiclone culture is also a part of this division of the gaming community and is affected by it much the same way.

My point is that unlike with the NES market (where it died and was revived by hobbyists and thus the lion's share of participants are going to be hobbyists), on the Famicom/clone side, as it never died, there is going to be a really large casual market. For example, I remember seeing Famiclone machines sold inside French-owned Carrefour hypermarkets, and these were cartridge-based machines, circa 2011, way before the NES/Famicom mini started appearing everywhere.

Quote from: P on August 16, 2024, 05:08:26 pmThen why did you say it sounds like we are whiny kids? I don't think our viewpoints sounds unreasonable from an unbiased view. And as I said before, a subjective matter can't be looked on objectively (or vice versa for an objective matter), for a subjective matter there are no facts only opinions, you can't say only one side is right and not the other. You said we sound like we think our opinion is universally right by holy powers, then you present this other opinion as being "objective" which to me sounds like you are just trying to make it appear universally right.

You guys are looking at the tiniest market, while ignoring the big picture. That's what comes across a little bit as whiny imo. We are collectors, developers, gamers who never stopped, etc. - however, are we necessarily the target market for these products? Or is the target market for their products going to be the casual guys who are also purchasing the modern 3.3 V clones?

I mean, to even think about it some more, let's go back to USB cables. If I were to manufacture phones or widgets or something and only used the oldest USB technology, it would be weird, right? Or should I manufacture the phone using the latest USB technology, knowing that some folks will have to purchase new cables? As 3.3 V machines are now the standard* , it seems somewhat understandable that all cartridges would be 3.3 V by now.

*I personally hate these modern clones and cartridges, btw.

Quote from: P on August 16, 2024, 05:08:26 pmSo you are saying because the average gamer doesn't understand the problem and is happy anyway it doesn't affect the whole gaming community? But yet you do agree that this type of engineering is causing damage to the old hardware? That's where the problem lies and it affects us all directly or indirectly on many levels, that's why we think it's unacceptable.

I'm saying that people / companies should have the right to do as they see fit, even if it isn't something that we prefer, as long as it is clear what they are doing.

As a hot take, I actually just realized that both Columbus Circle and other western /Japanese homebrew / indie companies both potentially screwed up, as there was indeed quite a distinct way to differentiate between the 3.3 V and 5 V cartridges.

The 3.3 V cartridges from my knowledge virtually all appear in the "smaller", "thinner" cartridge shells, generally having dots on the top of the cartridge. The 5 V cartridges area regular sized, like any Famicom / Famiclone cartridge we would be used to.

Exceptions: Columbus Circle threw their 3.3 V cartridges inside old-style shells = FAIL

Mega Cat Studios threw their 5 V indie Famicom games inside those 3.3 V cartridge shells = FAIL

The guys behind the Halloween games threw their 5 V indie Famicom games inside those 3.3 V shells = FAIL

Harodius guy threw his 5 V indie Famicom game inside those 3.3 V shells = FAIL

Outside of these major fails by folks who had no idea what they were doing (IMO), there was a nice system going, i.e. the small crappy shells with the dots = 3.3 V for the newer clones, and the regular, old style cartridges = 5 V for older clones / legitimate hardware. The manufacturers literally made a way to differentiate between the items. This never dawned on me until now, but as the manufacturers even gave us a way to separate between these compatibilities, I think the companies listed above are all at fault for muddying the waters so badly, as they all failed to comply.

USB is really a very poor analogy as even USB 3.0 is fully backwards-compatible with the USB 1 as introduced in the mid '90s. But I get what you mean, companies can't keep supporting old hardware forever as they have to move on and use parts that they are able to source today. That's definitely reasonable, regardless if one think it should apply to the Famiclone situation or not.


Your point is that the Famiclone market is larger than the hobbyist-old-hardware-market as it includes more causal players than just hardcore enthusiasts, but I don't see how that really changes anything. Actually that just makes it worse because casual players tends to be blissfully unaware of the dangers, and there is no telling if they use 3.3 V cartridges in a 5 V Famicom/Famiclone as well or a 5 V cartridge in a 3.3 V Famiclone.


You say that companies should have the right to do as they see fit, I say people should also have the right to stand up in order to make sure no company takes things too far.

A few years ago there was a ruckus in the community because a few articles made a big thing about cartridges for 5 V machines that were using 3.3 V parts with little to no voltage translation.
Some of the cheapest carts were especially badly designed which would make them just keep damaging themselves until the cartridge broke, while others used simple methods of limiting the voltage so that they would appear to work but would gradually wear out both the cart and console. Also many of these products where definitely marketed towards users with official hardware and not only clones.
This was an even bigger problem for other systems like the Game Boy, PC Engine and SFC as these uses CMOS technology which is much more sensitive to the wrong voltage than the Famicom's NMOS technology is.
Some sellers and manufacturers of modern multicarts, bootlegs and flashcarts such as the Everdrives became really angry and some of them started to post forum posts and videos with lots of technobabble to make it sound like they knew what they were talking about and reassured consumers that their cartridges were 100% safe to use. But the truth was that they just wanted to save their sales by taking advantage of the general public's lack of technical knowledge regarding this.

Some of the initial claims in these articles were exaggerated but it did a good job in making the masses aware of the problem, which was real. Manufacturers realized that this new movement couldn't be stopped and was hurting their sales, so they eventually started to use proper voltage translation in order to improve sales again. For example none of the Everdrives manufactured today has this problem AFAIK while some of the older Everdrives did.

I mean this isn't about rights, it's about preventing people from being hurt when lines are crossed. In this case, criticizing companies for their bad behavior was highly successful, so we shouldn't be quiet on the grounds that they "have the right to do what they want", because we have the equal right to criticize them.



That system where the design of the cartridge is used as an indicator of the voltage was just bound to fail. How would such rules be enforced when there are so many different manufacturers of cartridges? The shells are not easy to produce so homebrewers that wants to make their own carts would just take whichever they can get that is the cheapest and of OK quality.
Also it would require some knowledge to even know that there is a difference in the first place. If it fits in the console and the game runs, I'm pretty sure most people would just assume that it is compatible with the system, unless there are some kind of warnings on the cartridge or something.

Quote from: P on August 17, 2024, 04:55:28 pmThat system where the design of the cartridge is used as an indicator of the voltage was just bound to fail. How would such rules be enforced when there are so many different manufacturers of cartridges? The shells are not easy to produce so homebrewers that wants to make their own carts would just take whichever they can get that is the cheapest and of OK quality.
Also it would require some knowledge to even know that there is a difference in the first place. If it fits in the console and the game runs, I'm pretty sure most people would just assume that it is compatible with the system, unless there are some kind of warnings on the cartridge or something.

From my perspective, the cartridge system was genius - I do not know anyone that accepts that style cartridge shell with open arms. Everyone that I know hates them, and views them as modern crap to be used with modern machines. In a similar way, the people who were buying that crap don't see anything wrong, yet such casual people are also the ones generally buying the 3.3 V clones.

In my opinion, it was a huge fault of the homebrew community (i.e. those companies mentioned above) for using the wrong shells for their games. Actually, the Mega Cat Famicom homebrews suck balls imo, sorry for the vulgarness but NES box + NES manual + small sticker on NES box stating that it is a Famicom version + 3.3 V style modern shell? That's the markings of a cash grab imo, a hastily put together product.

For the two Famicom Halloween games, I can't even remember if they had boxes or not, but once again, I hated the cartridges when I saw them. Harodius should have been better since it was a game developed by people in Japan, but once again I cringed when I saw the cartridge shell. Anyone who knows about 3.3 V and 5 V also knows about those crappy, small modern carts and everything else.

Columbus Circle of course went the other way and while I like their shells, it still sucks that they were also partially responsible for messing up the system.

I mean, I have some late release cartridges from Waixing IIRC, which were 3.3 V versions, and even that company managed to conform to the standard. I don't think conforming to the clear cartridge design standard is much to ask, either. It at least makes a bit of sense in a modern world where 3.3 V is the standard while still a ton of 5 V machines / carts exist. At least people can quickly determine what is what, what damages what, etc.

I see, yeah well those typically cheap-looking modern cart shells wouldn't exactly be my first choice if I were to sell cartridges of my homebrew. The chance that people would mistake them for typical 3.3 V carts is part of the problem indeed, I'd like something that look more like the traditional licensed Famicom carts.

Quote from: P on August 19, 2024, 02:17:22 pmI see, yeah well those typically cheap-looking modern cart shells wouldn't exactly be my first choice if I were to sell cartridges of my homebrew. The chance that people would mistake them for typical 3.3 V carts is part of the problem indeed, I'd like something that look more like the traditional licensed Famicom carts.

Well if you do decide to sell cartridges of your homebrew, I could perhaps publish it.

Either way, it took awhile but it looks like we came to an understanding with the whole CC thing too. Crises adverted, I hate all that cheap modern stuff too haha.

Sure, :) I'm not a very skilled programmer, but maybe someday I could finish something that is worth selling.

Actually I stand corrected about something.

Today I woke up to see someone from a Brazilian FB group talking excitedly about how he purchased a brand new Famiclone with a multicart. It was obviously a 3.3 V monstrosity, and I mentioned it but the guy really didn't seem to say much on that point. He said he thought it looked good as it came with two detachable controllers and also long AV cables, two points where the original generation Famicoms don't really hold up, and then a multicart with a ton of games.

As the guy seems to be a collector and a gamer, it almost feels as though he isn't aware of the potential damage to the old machines by using the newer games on them. It looks like in some regions this problem extends quite deep, sadly.

Yeah I'd wager there are many that either don't know about it or ignores it for some reason.
The sellers of the stuff are doing their best to darken it, so people that don't have the technical knowledge might not know what to believe and others just believes what they want to believe. If you spent a lot of money on an item that is said to be potentially dangerous, I guess some people may ignore it and rather believe the sellers' claims instead.