I just was wondering if anybody has done it? The ports are naturally there, but they just run the wire out the back of the system. Just steal some ports off a busted toaster NES and turn them sideways and install on the fron of the system. I think it would look cool.
I've never seen it, but it'd be a really tight fit (if it would even fit at all) since the 7 pin ports are so deep. I've suggested many times just to use the 15 pin expansion port to connect 2 7-pin NES ports through it. That way you don't have to chop up your Famicom.
a better option would just be to go with the AV Famicom, which is what you're suggesting already made up nice by Nintendo.
1) Get yourself two nes extension cables:
http://www.estarland.com/index.asp?page=NintendoNES&product=30228
2) take apart your famicom.
3) cut the ends off the extension cables.
4) Solder the extension cables to where the famicom controllers attach.
5. Play famicom games with nes controllers.
Excellent idea and it would end up pretty neat if heatshrink tubing is used, but you'd lose the 2nd controller microphone.
Why not just mod a 'nintendo four score' with a 'neo geo extension cable'. It would only cost like $20 thats what i did. I got a four score for 12 bucks off ebay and a neo geo extension cable from tototek.com. Cut the cords solder the wires and there you go.Play your famicom with all of your favorite NES accessories. ;D ;D ;D ;D
http://video-games.shop.ebay.com/Accessories-/139969/i.html?_nkw=nintendo+four+score&_catref=1&_dmpt=Video_Games_Accessories&_fln=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m282 (http://video-games.shop.ebay.com/Accessories-/139969/i.html?_nkw=nintendo+four+score&_catref=1&_dmpt=Video_Games_Accessories&_fln=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m282)
http://www.tototek.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=23&products_id=58&zenid=aae95f7dc81d4f0ed10b31d1148e211a (http://www.tototek.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=23&products_id=58&zenid=aae95f7dc81d4f0ed10b31d1148e211a)
Exactly the same thing I did. Works great! Did you wire yours for 4-player use and for the zapper, too? I only ask because it's a little more difficult than simply "cutting the cords and soldering the wires" to enable the zapper & player 3 & 4 ports.
Quote from: ericj on June 16, 2010, 09:26:01 am
Exactly the same thing I did. Works great! Did you wire yours for 4-player use and for the zapper, too? I only ask because it's a little more difficult than simply "cutting the cords and soldering the wires" to enable the zapper & player 3 & 4 ports.
No. Im new to this stuff (got my first famicom 2 months ago). How did you wire it up for zapper & 4-player?
Everything has to bypass the IC in the 4-score since the NES controls 4-player mode differently than the Famicom. It simply will not work right just wired up through it.
You have to cut some PCB traces (easily identifiable when looking at the 4-score's PCB) and wire up D2 & D3 iirc on the NES ports for players 2-4 for the Zapper to work on them. Ports 3 & 4 are piggybacked off ports 1 & 2.
Note that when you wire it this way, you lose the Turbo and the 2-4 player switch functionality. In the future I may enable it, but it didn't seem worth the bother at the time I made it. Turbo would be easy to enable with a quick rewiring. The 4-player switch would be, too, but isn't really worthwhile since the IC is bypassed and 4-player mode is always available. Guess you could always use it as a power switch and install a led in it or something.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj287/pingaloquita/Fam4Scorint.jpg)
Well that looks quite a bit harder but awesome. Im a noob to this stuff. Not sure where you cut the traces. I think i will keep it the way i have it for now. i like having the turbo buttons and all i need is player one and player two but i would like to use the zapper but oh well. Still this is the best way to use NES controllers one your FAMICOM.
@ericj
I've recently purchased myself a four score and the necessary neo geo cable (which fits into my sharp twin famicom).
Now I'm curious. You write I'd have to cut some paths on the PCB. Can you please make it clear on the picture where those are?
You say it's easy to see, but I must be blind, because I can't find them!
You talk about D2 and D3, did you have some sort of schematics for this? (I didn't open up mine yet, I'm still charging my camera so I can take photos of my progress)
Also if you got any tips for improvements over the one you made, I'm all ears. I'm okay with leaving out autofire and the possibility to switch between 2 and 4 players aswell.
But it would indeed be sweet if my NES Zapper would work. If possible ofcourse.
Thanks in advance for any reply. Oh and sorry for resurrecting this thread, but this was the best thread I found about this.
I've been meaning to make another one of these, but haven't run across a cheap enough FourScore. I'd try some different things this time around, like wiring it to work with the turbo and 2/4 player switches. I'm also not entirely sure if the P3 & P4 ports work. I never cared to actually test it out since I didn't have any FC games that supported it at the time.
To enable the zapper to work, you have to wire up D3 & D4--they are unused by the NES, but the pins are there (they're the ones without any traces). 133MHz posted a great schematic on here somewhere for how to wire up the NES ports to the DA15 connector.
As for which traces to cut, I can't recall off-hand, but remember that it was simple to figure out when looking at the PCB. If you could post a clear pic of one, I can show you where. Bear in mind that I directly wired each port from the DA15 cable, completely bypassing the IC. There are other ways to wire it up that would be quicker.
I made a few pics of it... Will they do?
http://elrinth.com/mod/DSC00484.JPG (http://elrinth.com/mod/DSC00484.JPG)
up to
http://elrinth.com/mod/DSC00497.JPG (http://elrinth.com/mod/DSC00497.JPG)
I somehow misplaced my solder pen + iron, I'll have to borrow my big brothers tomorrow. Will I need additional tiny thin cables or will the neo geo cable fix it all? Ofc I still have the original cable from the four score over to use from, maybe I'm safe on thin cables already.
I think this one shows best: http://elrinth.com/mod/DSC00492.JPG (http://elrinth.com/mod/DSC00492.JPG)
I put the pictures as external links cause they are 3 meg+ in filesize.
Oh and incase my server does not work for you, I also put the last pic on dropbox: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5145312/pics/DSC00492.JPG (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5145312/pics/DSC00492.JPG)
Just get a AV Famicom
Or I could try to modify these things I already purchased. :) Still need some guidance before I start.
Sorry for the late reply. I didn't realize that you had posted pics.
Here's what I'd do, but there is more than one way to go about wiring this up.
Have a look at 133MHz's schematic--you can see that the 5V+, ground, & latch are shared between all ports. These can each be wired with just one or two connections each. D3 & D4 need wired for each port that you want the zapper to work on. I'd do it for ports 2-4.
Note that this schematic shows the 15 pin port from the console's pov, the cable is a mirror image of it. Your cable should have numbers on the pins.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj287/pingaloquita/esquematico.jpg)
I may be wrong about this part, but I think if you wire up port 3 to match port 1 (minus D3 & D4) and port 2 to match port 4 (piggyback them), then it should enable it to work with 4 player games. I haven't tested this, so if you try it out, post back if it works or not.
Cut the traces where the orange lines are and wire up the ground, latch & 5V+ where noted. All other connections will need directly wired.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj287/pingaloquita/4score.jpg)
Let me know if this works for you.
Thank you for this reply... My first attempt is a failure... Or a success, difficult to say.
I'm not sure any of my original NES controllers actually work :P
So...
I did however successfully get player two to constantly run right in Blue Shadow when I inserted my Acclaim pad. (which I know is broken-ish)
I'm going to borrow some controllers of my friend tomorrow so I can properly confirm what's working and what's not :P
First things I notice are:
Which green is it? The dark green or the lightrgeen? I soldered both to the LATCH :P
Same with light blue.. I've got two, one which kinda looks like teal and another which looks like lightish blue. Here I only used the light blue, but maybe it really is the one which is turqoise.
Same with dark yellow. I don't have that colour, but I DO have normal yellow and dark brown. I soldered both yellow and brown to same spot.
The cable you have will have different colors for the wires. You'll have to test the cable to see which wire corresponds to what pin number. The best way to do that is with a multimeter set to the continuity setting, testing the wires one by one and then labeling them with the pin number. If you just went by the colors in the cable, I can guarantee you that it's not wired correctly.
Ahh ofcourse.. Silly me! :) Yeah thanks that is a great idea! I've already used the multimeter to check that the cut lines are indeed cut.
I'll tell you tomorrow how it works out, now it's time for Zzz...
----------
UPDATE
Success.. Player 1 and player 2 enabled... Problem is, I don't have a zapper so I can't test that :P
Had some problem at first where it didn't work cause one of the cables weren't soldered properly.
not so great soldering skills :P (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5145312/pics/2012-02-23%2012.27.41.jpg)
I don't really get how I'm supposed to get p3 and p4 to work? What does piggyback mean?
Wouldn't input from P1 affect P3 aswell if I just drag the cables over there?
Oh and for those interested. The colours of the cables INSIDE the neo geo cable is (stupid me for not realizing that the scheme was indeed mirrored, you even wrote it :P):
1 - Brown - GND
4 - Black - D4(2)
5 - Red - D3(2)
7 - Light Yellow - Data(2)
9 - Pink - Clock(2)
12 - Light Blue - Latch
13 - Dark Blue - Data(1)
14 - Light Purple - Clock(1)
15 - Dark Purple - +5V
---
Congrats, but are you using http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosin when soldering? I don't think so...
I'm definatly not. I'm using standard tin-lead-ish. I think it's okay. I heard you can put superglue on it afterwards if you are afraid it'll loosen.
Have a look at this doc for how 4 player games work on the Famicom:
http://nesdev.icequake.net/ffpa.txt
I plugged in Super Spike V'Ball (pal, nes cart). Wasn't able to choose 2v2. Ports 3 and 4 controlled 1 and 2 :)
Did I miss something?
I checked that document and it looks just like indeed p1 and p3 are the same and p2 and p4. But I just don't get it. How is that supposed to work? :)
Try a different four player game--a famicom cart and not an NES cart.
Ok this is going to take awhile, I need to ebay myself one first! :)
but technically as I understand it, they coded european/american nes games one way for multiplayer and japanese famicom games in another way. Right?
simply just connecting cables between would just make port 3 and port 4 same as port 1 and 2. somewhere from p3 and p4 there needs to be something which shifts the bits before adding them together with p1 and p2. or do i understand it wrong?.
so there's really no way to play 4player pal games on my famicom unless I actually modify inside the console, right?
Edit: I've got super dodge ball (fami) incoming, so I've finally got some software to try this on. hang tight.
I'm not sure about that. Are there PAL famicom games--don't think I've ever seen one? Have a look around nesdev, there may be something, or maybe someone on here knows more about 3 & 4 player games and the DA15 pinout on the FC.
Got a japanese game now... Two controllers work.. P3 and P4... I have to use consoles own p1 and p2 controllers.
Cool, that's how I've since read that they are supposed to work. Makes a 4-player adapter pretty much useless, right, since you only really need 2 ports? :P
Well the "official" one by HORI supposedly has 4 players which actually works.
It's this one (http://superfami.com/fc_4player.html).
But does it really go in the expansion port? Cause there's another port on the famicom which is sort of flat-ish, maybe it goes into that one instead?
Getting one seems close to impossible tho.
The HORI version probably uses an IC, maybe an ASIC. I'd be interested to see the pcb in it. Maybe manuel or senseiman can find one.
Even with the HORI version, you're still left with four DA15 ports, which isn't very useful for us in the US since the single controllers are kind of expensive. It would help figure out how 4 controllers are supported through the accessory port, through.
I did the Famicom 4 Player Document way back in the day. Elrinth found me on Facebook.
And.... yeah, I simply have no idea how the Hori adapter is supposed to work without Joy1 D0 on the DA15. That's what the Famicom games look for. On the other hand, there really aren't many 4 player Famicom games out there. I just know of the Technos games, and Twinbee supports a 3rd player.
For what it's worth, here's my Four Score mod to support Famicom and NES 4 player games on the NES. - http://www.rahga.com/fun/image017.jpg (http://www.rahga.com/fun/image017.jpg)
Sorry for the late reply, and thank you very much for this reply rahga. I will apply this improvement to my own! :) since mine is only 2 players atm ;)
Quote from: punkpolitical on June 16, 2010, 09:17:46 am
Why not just mod a 'nintendo four score' with a 'neo geo extension cable'. It would only cost like $20 thats what i did. I got a four score for 12 bucks off ebay and a neo geo extension cable from tototek.com. Cut the cords solder the wires and there you go.Play your famicom with all of your favorite NES accessories. ;D ;D ;D ;D
http://video-games.shop.ebay.com/Accessories-/139969/i.html?_nkw=nintendo+four+score&_catref=1&_dmpt=Video_Games_Accessories&_fln=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m282 (http://video-games.shop.ebay.com/Accessories-/139969/i.html?_nkw=nintendo+four+score&_catref=1&_dmpt=Video_Games_Accessories&_fln=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m282)
http://www.tototek.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=23&products_id=58&zenid=aae95f7dc81d4f0ed10b31d1148e211a (http://www.tototek.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=23&products_id=58&zenid=aae95f7dc81d4f0ed10b31d1148e211a)
So are there anyone who would make me a similiar converter, and ofc i will pay for it + shipping etc.
Or the easiest way. Pcb swap. The famicom pcb is the same as the nes pcb for controllers
Sorry to bump an old topic however I modified a 4score today. I can confirm that most games work with 1-4 players with this though some games force you to use the hard wired after the title screen.
I am however having a bit of an issue with the zapper. It is not working but if I unplug it then it fires. I have 3 zappers and none have worked yet they test fine in an NES. I have tested on my famicom with both the JP version of duckhunt and the smb+dh from the nes and both produce the same results. Any ideas?
I also had problems with certain lighgun games on my Famicom with a NES Zapper. Mad City is one of the games that works flawlessly for me.
Quote from: P on November 02, 2016, 02:25:01 am
I also had problems with certain lighgun games on my Famicom with a NES Zapper. Mad City is one of the games that works flawlessly for me.
I have only tried with duck hunt so far but have a few others I could try. However when reading online it seems that this works with nearly ever light gun game. I have not read of an instance where it did not. It also didnt work with the NES version of DH in the famicom.
The link is offline now. Does your handmade adapter work with 4P Famicom games like Technos games?
Anybody still have the diagrams? The photos are all down.
I know this thread is super old, but I am interested in building an NES 4-Score to Famciom adapter to play the upcoming four player Micro Mages. Therefore, getting all four NES ports working on the Famicom is important.
But a lot of links are down. Can someone please walk me through this? If it helps, I can provide high res photos of the NES 4-Score motherboard, unmodified.
Since the Four Score only uses D0, all you need to do to support controllers is to connect the five pins to the Four Score's pins. Here is a pinout diagram:
Famicom Controller Port Pinout (front)
Port I Port II
_____ ______
|12345| |123456|
¯¯ ¯¯ ¯¯ ¯¯
P I 1: +5V, 2: CLK $4016, 3: P/S, 4: Data $4016.0, 5: GND
P II 1: +5V, 2: CLK $4017, 3: P/S, 4: Data $4017.0, 5: GND, 6: Mic $4016.2
Note: P/S is latch and comes from the $4016.0 output on both controllers.
The controller ports are internal on the main board and uses standard 2.54 mm
male headers, 5-pin and 6-pin in line.
NES Controller Port Pinout (front)
Port I Port II
_ _
GND -- |1\ GND -- |1\
CLK $4016 <- |27\ -- +5V CLK $4017 <- |27\ -- +5V
P/S <- |36| <- $4016.3 P/S <- |36| <- $4017.3
$4016.0 -> |45| <- $4016.4 $4017.0 -> |45| <- $4017.4
¯¯ ¯¯
Note: P/S is latch and comes from the $4016.0 output on both controllers.
HVC-101 have the same ports as NES but is missing D3 and D4.
According to this the pins that would have to connect are:
Famicom-NES
1 - 7 (+5V)
2 - 2 (CLK)
3 - 3 (P/S)
4 - 4 ($4016 D0)
5 - 1 (GND)
The controller II port has a sixth pin, this is the microphone input. I guess you can connect a 3.5 mm microphone jack here so you can use whatever microphone you want.
Remember the diagram are of the female ports while on the four score you would connect the male head, in other words the NES diagram will be mirror-reversed.
Things like Zappers won't work in your Four Score unless you also connect $2017 D3 and D4 (pin 6 and 5 on the NES controller 2 port), just like when modding an AV Famicom for Zapper. The Zapper should then work in controller port 2.
If I'm correct and you did everything right, you should be able to play both Famicom 4-player games and NES 4-player games. Actually I made a test ROM that tests both the Four Score and Expansion Port controllers at the same time, but since I don't have this setup I haven't tested it on hardware yet. Could you test it for me if you build this?
What I'd like to know is how $2016 D3 and D4 are wired on NES as they are not connected to anything on Famicoms. If they can be connected, the Zapper can be used in controller port 1 as well (for games that support that) and the NES Power Pad should also work. All schematics I've seen are of the Famicom and are therefore missing the $2016 D3 and D4.
Edit: I uploaded the test program here (https://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18701).
mod edit: changed code block to pre block so that it formats correctly ;D
P: Thanks! I didn't know about the pre block! :)
I appreciate that posting, but most of that goes beyond my understanding :-[
What I need is really a step by step guide on where to solder wires to, what traces to cut, what connections to jump, and so on.
I've bought a Neo-Geo extension cable, cut off the male head and identified the coloring of each of the 15 wires corresponding to the 15 pins.
Here are images of the unmodified NES Four Score pcb. If someone would be so kind as to walk me through what needs to be modified in the images, that would be very helpful.
I need all four ports usable on Famicom. I would like to retain turbo fire support via the four score, and if possible NES zapper support.
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/fda71ca4b7698b3b3a93e4df6cefbe39/tumblr_pqi48aoUW61rc7qlzo1_1280.jpg)
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/333867bde67c0795b786842c4b8f5690/tumblr_pqi48aoUW61rc7qlzo2_1280.jpg)
Ah just ignore the stuff you didn't understand. I have a tendency to spew out superfluous information sometimes (it's often faster to type a long post than a short one).
The Neo-Geo extension cable will do you no good because you can not use the expansion port for this. Also the Four Score needs to be untouched, so no need to modify that either. You however need to put 2.54 mm male headers on the Four Score or make two adapters from NES extension cables and such headers. The 2.54 mm headers are the head of the Famicom controllers, one is 5 pin and one is 6 pin (the extra pin is for the mic). They are standard stuff so I think you should be able to get those off-the-shelf. In worst case you can take them from broken Famicom controllers.
This is as good instructions you can get from me. I haven't tried this myself but it should work in theory:
Building two adapters is probably easiest, and allows you to still use the Four Score in a NES.
You need two fully populated NES extension cables (or the controller ports from a broken NES) and two 2.54 mm male headers, one that is 5-pin and one 6-pin. Also a 3.5 mm female mono cable/port.
1) Cut the female parts of two NES extension cables.
2) Expose the wires and identify which colour corresponds which pin in the female end. The 2.54 mm headers also needs exposed and identified wires.
3) Solder the exposed wires for one NES cable to one male header, and the other NES cable to the other male header according to the diagram in my last post. For pin 6 on the 6-pin header,
solder the 3.5 mm female mono-cable to pin 6 and its GND part to pin 5.
Edit: I forgot about the other components for the mic circuit in the controller, these needs to be added to the adapter as well.
4) For the unused NES pins (NES pin 5 and 6 on both adapters), don't cut them off as you may want to use them later, just tape them for now so that they are insulated.
5) Open your Famicom and unconnect the controllers from the PCB and connect your adapters instead of them.
You now should have two NES ports sticking out of the back of your Famicom (might look dumb), and can therefore use NES controllers and Four Scores in your Famicom. Test it in my controller test program in my previous post. It should be possible to use both Four Score and expansion controllers at the same time for a maximum of 6 controllers if there is enough juice. I think you should also be able to connect any microphone into the 3.5 mm port. Some accessories like light guns will not work in this adapter yet. Use the expansion port for those for now.
Connecting NES pin 5 and 6
I told you to leave these unconnected because I don't know where they go into the Famicom. These pins in the second adapter (the one for controller II) needs to be soldered to the same lines inside the Famicom as pin 4 and 5 on the expansion port are connected to respective. This will make the Zapper and Arkanoid controller among other accessories work in the controller II port. For NES pin 5 and 6 on the controller I port, I don't know where these goes.
Famicom 15-pin expansion port
1___________________8
\ o o o o o o o o /
9 \ o o o o o o o / 15
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Possible problems:
You might not want to have too long cables on the adapters or there will be too much resistance. Keep them short and rely on the length of the NES controllers instead. They need to be long enough so that a Four Score can connect to them though (since the Four Score has two heads stuck together). If it doesn't work anyway, you may need help from someone with more expertise than me.
Just ask if there is something that is unclear.
Quote from: P on April 25, 2019, 10:44:55 am
The Neo-Geo extension cable will do you no good because you can not use the expansion port for this.
Whaaaaat?!
I have a Twin Famicom I want to use to play Micro Mages on once it gets shipped. I want to be able to use four players on it, so I want to modify one of my NES Four Scores to Famicom using the DB15 expansion port.
The use of the Famicom expansion port is very much necessary.
ericj here made a video showing it. I want to do what he did.
https://youtu.be/43ETUs-dxV8
Quote from: satoshi_matrix on April 25, 2019, 12:49:40 pm
ericj here made a video showing it. I want to do what he did.
https://youtu.be/43ETUs-dxV8
Not my video but he does the same mod. :gamer:
I'm not sure you understand what this mod does Satoshi Matrix. From what I understand it only turns the Four Score into an expansion port multitap using port 1 and 2 (so they will work like controller III and IV) of the Four Score. Port 3 and 4 won't work for anything.
It is not possible to play games that requires the Four Score by connecting it via the expansion port as the data pins for controller I and II are not available there. If you look in the comments of the video he even says "Four Score is not compatible with Famicom so it only supports two players" (although that's not entirely true as the Four Score should work through the controller I and II port inside the Famicom).
The Four Score works by multiplexing (sending two controllers' data through the same pin serially) so in theory it should be possible to use port 3 and 4 as well, but of course no game does that (unless that's how the Hori multitap works). Edit: Actually as it turns out that is exactly how the Hori multitap works. See below.
Micro Mages seems to require either the Four Score or the Hori multitap for 4-player mode so this mod possibly doesn't work at all with that game (although they are not entirely clear about this).
Ohh yes you re quite correct, I did have a misunderstanding of how it works.
So post performing this mod, it would work like this?
Player 1: Controller 1 permanently attached controller
Player 2: Controller 2 permanently attached controller w/ Mic
Player 3: Four Score controller port 1
Player 4: Four Score controller port 2
and then Four Score controller port 3 and 4 not assigned to anything.
If that's correct, then why did you say that a Neo-Geo extension cable will do me no good? As far as I'm aware, the only way to get more than two controllers working on a Famicom is through the expansion port. Please clarify.
Post Merge: April 25, 2019, 05:30:52 pm
Quote from: ericj on April 25, 2019, 01:46:57 pm
Not my video but he does the same mod. :gamer:
Oh, whoops. Sorry! but it would be helpful if you could take some photos of how you have yours wired. My goal is to get four players on Famicom. P explains that the mod will only provide player 3 and 4 via the four score, and Player 1 and 2 still come from the permanently attached controllers. Fair enough, if that's how it needs to be that's fine. I just need some help being walked through how to actually do that.
Yes and no. Yes you will be able to use the Four Score port 1 and 2 as player 3 and 4 in games that looks for these controllers but you won't be able to play games that requires a real unmodded Four Score, and Micro Mages seems to do that. The Famicom/NES doesn't really have a system to "assign" controllers to anything, they just have different ways they expect games to read them and uses different input port pins. There are more than just 4 types of controllers for Famicom/NES (there are actually 6 valid types if we ignore the Hori multitap) and different games looks for different types.
There's just too much misinformation and faulty assumptions regarding how this all works so I'll just explain it in a way that's easy to understand. A picture says more than a thousand words so it's time for some crude paint art:
(https://i.imgur.com/u2XGGg7.png)
In the above image there are 8 types of controllers including the 2 invalid ones:
Con I
The first internal controller. On NES the port is on the outside so it's easier to detach but on Famicom you need to open the case to detach it. The first port on (unmodded) NES multitaps (Four Score or NES Satellite) are mapped directly to port 1 so any controller connected to that will act like Con I.
Con II
The second internal controller. Similar to Con I it's connected externally on the NES. The Famicom version is missing START and SELECT buttons and always reports those as being unpressed. The Famicom version also houses a microphone, but let's for simplicity's sake pretend that's a separate device. The second port on (unmodded) NES multitaps (Four Score or NES Satellite) are mapped directly to port 2 so any controller connected to that will act like Con II.
Mic
It shares the same cable as Con II in the Famicom but it works fine separately and uses its own wire inside the cable.
Con III A
This is the external controller on a Famicom that you connect to the 15-pin expansion port. Many games, but not all, uses it as an alternative to Con I in case that controller is broken. Other games uses it for player 3. To connect this to a NES, an ENIO or similar adapter is needed which connects to the NES expansion port on the underside.
Con IV A
This is a second external controller that is connected to the 15-pin expansion port. Just like Con III A, this controller is often used as an alternative to Con II in case that's broken. Other games uses it for player 4. In order to connect it, a special adapter is needed. Some external Famicom controllers comes with such an adapter built-in via a second 15-pin port on the controller itself. They may also come with a switch so you can choose if the external controller should act like Con III A or Con IV A. To connect this to a NES, an ENIO or similar adapter is needed which connects to the NES expansion port on the underside.
Con III B
Any controller that are connected to port 3 of an (unmodded) NES multitap will become Con III B. Certain (NES) games uses this for player 3 but it is different from the Con III A which is connected to the expansion port (on both Famicom and NES). Most games will ignore this controller. In order to connect it to a Famicom, the NES multitap must be connected to the internal ports inside the Famicom.
Con IV B
Any controller that are connected to port 4 of an (unmodded) NES multitap will become Con IV B. Certain (NES) games uses this for player 4 but it is different from the Con IV A which is connected to the expansion port (on both Famicom and NES). Most games will ignore this controller. In order to connect it to a Famicom, the NES multitap must be connected to the internal ports inside the Famicom.
Con III C
This is the controller that happens in port 3 of a NES multitap that's modded to connect to the Famicom's 15-pin expansion port (or ENIO on NES). Although it is technically possible for a game to use this controller, there are no games that does as far as I know, since the NES multitap is not supposed to be used on a Famicom's expansion port. Edit: Actually the Hori adapter uses this controller.
Con IV C
This is the controller that happens in port 4 of a NES multitap that's modded to connect to the Famicom's 15-pin expansion port (or ENIO on NES). Same applies as Con III C. This controller is unused by games. Edit: It's used by the Hori adapter, see bellow.
Note: The Hori multitap is not included here because I don't know how it works.
Edit: The Hori multitap is described here (https://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=4906.msg183947#msg183947). Basically it is like the Four Score but connected to the expansion port and the signature used to detect it is different, so the Four Score would need to be modded to act like the Hori adapter in setup 4 of the above diagram.
In the above image there are also 5 types of system setups:
1) Famicom Setup
This is the normal setup with two external controllers. The fourth controller needs some kind of adapter to connect.
Many games supports all four controllers.
2) NES Setup
NES has no expansion port so only 2 controllers can be connected without some kind of adapter. The two controllers are exactly the same as the two internal controllers on a Famicom, it's just that the ports are on the outside of the console.
3) NES Setup (with NES multitap)
Using an unmodded Four Score you can connect 4 controllers. But controllers in port 3/4 will become Con III/IV B instead of A, so this won't work with most 4-player Famicom games. Micro Mages seems to be using this setup for 4 players.
4) Famicom Setup (with NES multitap in EXP)
This is the mod that Ericj made. You can play 4-player Famicom games that looks for Con III/IV A with this but not games that requires the unmodded Four Score (Con III/IV B). Port 3 and 4 in the multitap are unused by games.
5) Famicom Setup (with NES multitap in port I/II)
This is the setup I suggested. By connecting the Four Score to the Con I and II ports, just like it's normally connected to a NES, you should will be able to use the Four Score as intended, even on a Famicom. Since the expansion port is still available it is technically possible to connect all 6 types of valid controllers (Con I, Con II, Con III A, Con IV A, Con III B and Con IV B) at the same time. The microphone must be wired separately as there is no connection for it in the Four Score.
Edit: Fixed the attached image.
Edit: Updated with new info about the Hori multitap.
Thanks for explaining this.
Option 5 would require removal of the two permanently attached controllers and hard wiring the Four Score directly to the Famicom's internal controller pins. That's not an option I want to do for several reasons including aesthetics and the simple fact I want the use of the permanently attached controllers. Otherwise, I might as well use my AV Famicom which natively supports an unmodified Four Score.
From the looks of it, I need instructions for modifying the four score for Option 4 on your diagram, which retains player 1 and 2 on the permanently attached controllers and puts 3 and 4 on the Four Score ports 1 and 2.
Well option 5 requires you to somehow connect your Four Score to the internal controller connectors on the Famicom PCB, not necessarily permanently attaching it. You could attach connectors to it and make it modular so nothing needs to be permanently attached, but that might be a lot of work and maybe not problem free with all the connectors and adapters needed for both the Four Score and the internal controllers. But it is the only way to connect a Four Score to a Famicom.
Option 4 is what you have been asking for all this time, and I told you many times it will not work with Four Score games like Micro Mages. These games requires the following controllers from my diagrams:
Player 1: Con I
Player 2: Con II
Player 3: Con III B
Player 4: Con IV B
Con III/IV B are only possible with option 3 and 5. Not option 4.
If you have an NTSC NES or AV Famicom I don't see why you want to destroy your Four Score. If you just want to be able to connect two controllers to the expansion port (option 1) all you need is two Neo-Geo extension cables or two NES extension cables and one Neo-Geo extension cable and build a simple adapter. You can't play Four Score games with that either of course.
Essentially what I'm looking for is to turn option 4 into option 1, have two controllers come out the expansion port.
The reason I'm willing to do this with the Four Score is because I have an extra four score from thrifting, it has the NES female plugs I need.
I've emailed the creators of micro mages and sent them your diagram. Hopefully they will respond and let me know what they recommend. Option 1 should work, but option 1 requires daisy chaining certain controllers. it's kind of messy and it requires very specific controller that even have the option to daisy chain. This is another reason I'd like to use the Four Score.
Quote from: satoshi_matrix on April 27, 2019, 01:42:52 pm
Essentially what I'm looking for is to turn option 4 into option 1, have two controllers come out the expansion port.
Option 1 and 4 both support Con III/IV A so you can play games like the Famicom version of Nekketsu Koukou Dodgeball-bu, but no Four Score games of course. I hope you understand that the 4-player mode in Micro Mages is included in "Four Score games" so you won't be playing that using these two setups.
I'm curious to hear what the creators say though. I'd also love to hear how the Hori adapter works as it seems to be using magic.
QuoteThe reason I'm willing to do this with the Four Score is because I have an extra four score from thrifting, it has the NES female plugs I need.
Fair enough. I'm not sure how the mod is done though so better ask Ericj for the details.
QuoteOption 1 should work, but option 1 requires daisy chaining certain controllers. it's kind of messy and it requires very specific controller that even have the option to daisy chain. This is another reason I'd like to use the Four Score.
It should work with what? As I said it only works with games that uses Con III/IV A, like Nekketsu Koukou Dodgeball-bu, and not with games that uses Con III/IV B, like Micro Mages. I hope that's clear.
And it doesn't require daisy chaining if you build an adapter (https://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=4564.msg74497#msg74497) (which is probably easier to build than modding the Four Score). That would allow you to use any standard NES controller as Con III/IV A, and also certain things like a NES Zapper in the second port (heck you can even build adapters for SFC or Virtual Boy controllers as they use the same protocol as the Famicom controllers, they will have a bunch of additional unused buttons though).
Post Merge: April 29, 2019, 12:48:59 pm
Thinking over it, it's possible that the authors of Micro Mages said Hori 4-player adapter when they really meant the standard expansion port setup. Wikipedia mixes them up and lists a bunch of games that are not compatible with the Hori adapter, like Nekketsu Dodgeball.
If this is the case, Micro Mages would work with setup 1 and 4 in the diagram. But by just judging by their kickstarter page it shouldn't.
Please let us know what they have to say when they answer your e-mail.
from the micro mages manual:
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/7760c16c6569ceccef0f05f42a4a9b63/tumblr_pqu6eunGei1rc7qlzo1_1280.png)
https://66.media.tumblr.com/7760c16c6569ceccef0f05f42a4a9b63/tumblr_pqu6eunGei1rc7qlzo1_1280.png
Post Merge: May 01, 2019, 12:33:58 pm
Today, the Micro Mages rom was released to backers, so I fired it up on my N8 and tested out the multiplayer.
on my Twin Famicom, by default it works like this:
Player 1: permanently attached player 1 controller
Player 2: permanently attached player 2 controller
Player 3: DB-15 Expansion port
Player 4: Daisy chained controller from player 3 controller
Given this and the diagram in the manual, an NES Four Score mod that uses the first two controller ports is considered valid by the game, so diagram #4 that P made is applicable.
So I need to know where to solder what wires to on my NES Four Score to make it DB-15 compatible and work with Micro Mages on my Famicom like this.
I know that SNES and NES controllers are compatible , so can The Hudson Super MultiTap - SNES be plugged to the Famicom with just rewiring ? :question:
(https://www.genkivideogames.com/images/HC696shots.jpg)
I also got a reply from Micro Mages and the news is that it does support both the standard 4-player way (setup 1 and 4 in my diagrams) and the Hori 4-player Adapter's unique protocol (not included in the diagram). The reason only the Hori adapter is mentioned on the kickstarter page and in the manual was due to a misunderstanding. Micro Mages uses the expansion controllers (Con III/IV A) as duplicated player 1/2 in 1-player/2-player modes and as player 3/4 in 3-player/4-player modes. The manual states that you need to turn on the 2P/4P switch on the Hori adapter but doing that is only to enable the second pair of ports on it, which Micro Mages uses as duplicated player 1/2 in 3-player/4-player modes. The first two ports will always work no matter what state the switch is in.
The Hori adapter is actually a Famicom version of the Four Score and works the same way, only that it connects to the expansion port instead of the internal ports and it has a different signature used to detect it. Long story short: Con III C and Con IV C in setup 4 are actually valid and used by the Hori adapter. But as it has a different signature than the Four Score (it's actually the same signature but reversed, a strong hint that both adapters are made by the same people) the Four Score can't be used without modding it to send the correct signature or games won't be able to detect it. The first pair of ports can always be used though since it also acts like a standard Famicom multitap (setup 1 in the diagram). Technically the Hori adapter is a 6 controller adapter because it adds 4 additional controllers to the 2 internal ones, but the intention is probably to be able to use 4 replaceable controllers (in case the internal ones are broken) and all games (Wit's, US Championship V'Ball, Downtown Nekketsu Koshinkyoku and Micro Mages are all games I know that supports it) seems to only support 4 players and just duplicates two of the ports so they work like the internal ports.
Quote from: FAMICOM_87 on May 01, 2019, 04:37:05 pm
I know that SNES and NES controllers are compatible , so can The Hudson Super MultiTap - SNES be plugged to the Famicom with just rewiring ? :question:
The SFC multitap kind of works in a similar way to the Four Score/Hori 4-player Adapter in the sense that it reads controllers 2 to 5 serially, but it doesn't work exactly the same and also uses an output pin to switch between reading controller 2/3 and 4/5. I guess it's not impossible to mod it to act like Four Score or Hori 4-player Adapter (ignoring port 5), but I have no idea how.
If one were to develop a new game that uses the native protocol, I guess the Famicom/NES controller ports cannot be used, because it needs an output pin, but it can probably be used in the expansion port on both Famicom and NES.
Quote from: P on May 02, 2019, 02:44:20 am
The Hori adapter is actually a Famicom version of the Four Score and works the same way, only that it connects to the expansion port instead of the internal ports and it has a different signature used to detect it.
Exactly
P, that's why different games acts differently depends on which device has been plugged in, however it is still up to programmers to deal with coding the signals correctly.
Here is a Hori internal pinouts and stuff thanks to our good ol' Polish engineer
dic-sc7 from our ContraBanda crew:
(http://mwk1.vot.pl/contrabanda/img/hori_dic-sc7_03.png)
Ah yes thanks to him the Hori adapter protocol was added to the nesdev wiki (https://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/Four_Score#Hori_4_Players_Adapter). :)
The question is how they port-swapped the signature as Hori apparently didn't just swap the pins of the chip.
I think OP's talking about replacing the built in-controllers with ports for NES controllers.
Yes you are right, back in 2010. The discussion have changed many times since then.
Can't you just cut traces of the extension port to internalize the mod in option 5, soldering the internal controller ports to the expansion port? Of course you'd want to keep/rewire certain traces like Ground, VCC, Latch, D3 and D4. I believe this way you can get the fourscore to work on the famicom without there being a need for visible external mods. And at that point you'd also be modding the 4 score, you can add connections for the light gun.
If certain traces are chosen, I can imagine being able to keep a lot of compatibility with famicom peripherals as well. From the top of my head the internal controller ports have 10 connections total, 4 of which are ground and vcc, possibly latch for both as well are already on the expansion port (and possibly others that I'm unaware off). meaning you'd only need to find the 6 or less least used connections on the famicom expansion port to cut the traces of to maximize the use of famicom peripherals. Personally I'd vote for connections that are almost exclusively used for regular famicom controllers replacements and peripherals for very unpopular games (like the Majong controller and keyboard).
Though my knowledge on the uses of the famicom expansion port use is very limited, so at best I can make educated guesses. ???
Probably possible but personally I have no interest in doing any mods that removes any features. The point of my suggestions were only to add features of the NES to the Famicom without loosing any existing features. And loosing the keyboard just to add Four Score and whatnot would be out of the question (and I believe it is one of the more popular peripherals, not one of the unpopular ones).
All my suggestions are highly theoretical though, requires a lot of work and probably introduces a bunch of new problems to solve. It might be easier to use a New Famicom that already has the NES controller sockets, connect $4017.D3/D4, build the extra hardware needed for the $4016.D3/D4 (as required to use two Zappers) and build the microphone hardware.
Just did some testing, the only points that's missing, a direct connection, on the expansion port from the internal controller ports is D0(1) and audio. Considering I don't think most peripherals use the audio port, beyond possibly some karaoke stuff, I think disconnecting that to connect D0(1) might be the best option while leaving nearly everything intact.
And considering passing through audio from the controller port is not that important I feel, as that's rarely used. (10 games or so, right?)
At any rate, I'll try it in the near future and see what comes of it. I recon it's only cutting the audio connection, wire up the D0(1) and wiring up the neo geo extension cable to the four score. All that is of course assuming controllers are used the same across both the NES and famicom. And considering my quick and dirty attempt that lead me to this forum of just hooking up the four score using the "nes to famicom adapter" image from 2008 that uses D1 instead of D0, it has decent chance of working I feel.
-----
Edit:
Making it so I get D0(1) on the expansion port made it all work. It essentially hijacks the internal controllers completely (read, once fourscore is plugged in only the mic on player 2 works) and only makes the controllers put into the fourscore usable. Only issue I currently have which I'll later figure out is when the internal Player 2 controller is plugged in no player 2 controller works either on the fourscore or internal. But once the internal player 2 controller is plugged out the fourscore is fully functional and works with games supporting the fourscore as far as I've tested. So now the task of figuring out why player 2 doesn't work when the internal player 2 is plugged in (except mic). Probably some minor thing to get player 2 fully functioning or in an extreme circumstance a switch to disconnect the connection that makes the internal player 2 port not being able to use any player 2 port.
Or in simple terms, fourscore fully works on the famicom if you unplug the internal player 2 and add D0(1) to the expansion port. I'm looking at getting the internal player 2 being plugged in to not mess with anything.
-----
Edit 2:
Reason is something with the D0(2) line. The obvious but also brute force solution is a simple switch on that line (orange wire), but I'll see if I find a more elegant solution.
QuoteConsidering I don't think most peripherals use the audio port, beyond possibly some karaoke stuff
...
And considering passing through audio from the controller port is not that important I feel, as that's rarely used. (10 games or so, right?)
No, the karaoke set has its own microphone hardwired in the cartridge. The audio pin in the expansion port is an output pin (apparently it's without expansion audio mixed in on the original Famicom while it is mixed in on the New Famicom). Only peripherals that uses it are things with a headphone port, like the S.D. Station or certain external controllers. No games so far relies on it as far as I know.
QuoteMaking it so I get D0(1) on the expansion port made it all work.
...
fourscore fully works on the famicom if you unplug the internal player 2 and add D0(1) to the expansion port.
...
The obvious but also brute force solution is a simple switch on that line (orange wire), but I'll see if I find a more elegant solution.
By doing that you gain the Four Score but looses external controllers (plus probably a ton of other peripherals relying on it). If you can put a switch that disconnects the internal controller socket and connects D0 to the expansion port you could avoid having this conflict and possibly retain the original features.
Good to know that cutting the audio line doesn't really effect the functionality of the console.
You don't need to disconnect the whole socket for it to work, just the D0(2) line. My suspicion is that that line is simply pulled out of spec making it unreadable for the famicom so possibly a passive component in the controller or fourscore could fix that. But it's 4AM right now, so going to check that tomorrow if my work room isn't an oven.
I'd personally rather have a switch as a last resort, but if someone needs this mod now a switch on the orange wire (D0(2)) in the second player controller does the trick (or you could do it in the console, but I feel in the controller it would be more elegant). I like my mods to be more passive, so I'll check if that's possible within my knowledge.
I meant a switch for both D0 lines so that external controllers and headphones can be used again.
Headphones? You mean the mic? The mic can always be used as long as the second internal controller is plugged in, circuitry is completely separate from the normal controller circuitry.
Or do you mean in the famicom itself so you can re-enable the audio line on the expansion port? Then it would probably be smart to use a dual pole single throw switch to do so. Essentially a switch with "stock" and "four score compatibility" modes. Though I imagine most people wouldn't mind losing the chance to use headphones on a famicom or a speaker in a controller to gain the use of regular NES controllers and fourscore compatibility.
----
Edit: It might be my PAL NES stuff but D0(1/2) both get pulled high to 5V when the fourscore is attached but normally is ~.25 with just internal controllers. Considering I don't have NTSC NES stuff I can't be 100% sure. At any rate the high 5V would be a good way of detecting if the fourscore is in use, as I don't believe that's normal behaviour. Unless someone can test with a peripheral that uses D0(2) on the expansion port.
If regular D0(2) usage on the expansion port also gives ~.25V then the pulling high of the 5V line could be used as detection system on a pic chip. (and then we'd need to find someone that can write code for a pic chip) The mod might be different or even simpler on NTSC\SCN PAL fourscore hardware. As from what I've read those don't pull high, so for those I suspect that the mod as is is good enough without switching circuitry.
I meant the audio output in the expansion port that you used. Since your mod breaks things, a switch to undo the mod is in order while also getting rid of the conflicting problem.
It's not about if people want headphones or not, it's about the fact that the mod is intrusive and changes the specs. That's a surefire way to make it incompatible with other mods or accessories.
Considering the audio line is at an end of a trace breaking other mods isn't much of an issue, unless some mod specifically relies on getting audio from that pin instead of the nice solder pad named sound connected to the same trace and thus gets the same data. Nor is that pin normally pulled down for anything so for the famicom it's lust like there is no peripheral attached to that pin that would use it. So I'm not worried about it breaking other mods.
And as the pin only caries audio out, which only function is as an audio output, I'm not worried about losing that either. I understand people that want to keep everything as unobtrusive as possible though for things like headphones.
I'd just be happy to have the fourscore working fully without a need for a hard switch. If that means I don't have audio output on the expansion port I'm fine with that, ideally I wouldn't lose that but I won't go out hunting for a more complicated solution as the audio port has such a limited use and personally wouldn't miss it for a second, nor do I think the average "I just want to play games" user would miss it. And looking for such a solution quite possibly would make the mod a lot harder to perform, to troubleshoot and harder to undo if one wishes. For me it's one of those "I'd be nice if I also could get that" situations.
Though like I stated before, a single dual pole single throw switch is a solution for those people that want to have a stock mode and a four score mode.
My current way only of doing things as I've set up only trades the chance of using peripherals that use the audio out like the headphones so you can fully use NES controllers on your famicom, get turbo functionality on those controllers including controller 1 and 2 and allow you to play 4 player games that aren't exclusive to Japan with that functionality (most interesting games from that group have already been modded for use with a four score anyways I believe). I think for the vast majority of people that's a fine trade and there is a solution so you shouldn't have to make such a trade.
That said I'd love to get a full list of peripherals that use that pin, because I honestly can't think of much use for it beyond headphones and speakers.