Famicom World

Family Computer => Technical & Repair Assistance => Topic started by: Pit on November 13, 2013, 02:19:07 PM



Title: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Pit on November 13, 2013, 02:19:07 PM
Hi,

Im' currently making my own repro of Gimmick! for famicom. Firstly, I'd like to thank MWK and 80's Freak for helping me when I started involved in this reproduction.

My repro based on a sunsoft FME-7 game is in work in progress. Also, I bought an other sunsoft game : Dodge danpei, to make a second repro.

And what a surprise when I opened the shell :

(http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/16/47/69/99/imag1811.jpg)


A sunsoft 5B :'(.

Well, I made research on the web and found that page with a scheme to make 5B support Gimmick sounds : link (http://applesorce.b.sourceforge.jp/2011/09/27/%E3%82%B5%E3%83%B3%E3%82%BD%E3%83%95%E3%83%88%E3%81%AE%E6%8B%A1%E5%BC%B5%E9%9F%B3%E6%BA%90%E3%81%AE%E5%B0%81%E5%8D%B0%E3%82%92%E8%A7%A3%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6%E9%B3%B4%E3%82%89%E3%81%99%E6%96%B9%E6%B3%95/)


I also found Drakon's posts, who made a gimmick repro with a japanese gremlins 2 having a sunsoft 5B, but links of photos are dead.

I'm gonna give this repro a try, my "issues" for now are :

- PRG maskrom is 28 pins, I have to adapt a 27C020 which is 32 pins. I think the PRG maskrom is from Nintendo, I've checked with my multimeter and the pinout corresponds.

- CHR rom might be from sunsoft, so I think no redirections on pins will be needed.


Does anyone else have done this mod ?



mod edit: fixed really long link


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: 80sFREAK on November 13, 2013, 09:57:00 PM
IIRC you might need to cut some "ribs" in the shell to fit 32pin chip, otherwise it's just standart rewire procedure.


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Pit on November 14, 2013, 06:21:50 AM
Ok thanks :D.

With the multimeter I found the PRG maskrom was with nintendo pinout, so I have crossed all pinouts informations and made a scheme of connection :

(http://i68.servimg.com/u/f68/16/47/69/99/gimmic10.png)

A17 of the 27C020 need to be wired to the sunsoft 5B pin 32.

Also, on the dodge danpei PCB pin 2 of sunsoft 5B is grounded, it confirms that it has to be lifted.


For the CHR maskrom, the pinout is the same as eproms. I think a 27C1001 will be good.


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: famifan on November 15, 2013, 06:48:22 AM
- PRG maskrom is 28 pins, I have to adapt a 27C020 which is 32 pins. I think the PRG maskrom is from Nintendo, I've checked with my multimeter and the pinout corresponds.

- CHR rom might be from sunsoft, so I think no redirections on pins will be needed.
CHR comes with JEDEC compliant pinout, no rewiring needed

PRG as usual comes with 32->28 pin nintendo compatible pinout. Nesdev wiki really helps


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Pit on November 15, 2013, 07:57:50 AM
Thanks for confirmation :).

Yes Nesdevwiki helps, I made my scheme with it.

I've edited my scheme in my last post, with EPROM A16 that goes to the maskrom pin 22.

So I need :

- PRG : 27C020, rewiring on the scheme,
- CHR : 27C1001, no rewiring.



Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Pit on November 26, 2013, 11:36:07 AM
News !

I got my gimmick repro with 5B chip work, but I don't have the extra sounds. I'll checked the sound circuit I built in the cartridge, but I was wondering if I would have to mod my Nes too.

I'm using my nes toaster with added famicom slot, and a enio exp board. With the powerpack I have the extra sounds, not with my gimmick repro.

Edit : I have to mod the 60-72 pin converter, by wiring pin 46 (60 pins edge) to pin 54 (72 pins edge). Will try tonight :bub:

Post Merge: November 26, 2013, 05:32:49 PM
Ok, now it fully works :). I lade the mod on my 60-72 pins adapter and all the sounds are here.

(http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/16/47/69/99/imag1813.jpg)

Thank you again famifan, 80's freak and MWK :).


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: L___E___T on November 26, 2013, 05:34:28 PM
Can you start making some more? :)


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: MWK on November 26, 2013, 06:36:50 PM
Way to go Pit! Congratz :star: :star: :star:


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: P on November 26, 2013, 06:55:34 PM
Good job on that! :)


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: 80sFREAK on November 27, 2013, 03:29:26 AM
@Pit, all looks good. Tidy, no hot glue involved. Just noticed pin1 on PRG chip is missing, but IIRC it's NC anyway.

Can you start making some more? :)
Unfortunately 5B based Dodge Danpei or whatever it was are not that common, so AY chip required.


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: famifan on November 27, 2013, 08:01:12 AM
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More purchases are making higher your chances!

Friendly cost for already registered famicomworld member is low as $19.99 per cart.
Also, a premium version contains Gremlins2 is also available only for $39.99 per cart.  :pacman: Hurry up! :link:
Limited stock :-X
Starting on Dec, 1st 8)


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Pit on November 27, 2013, 11:35:39 AM
@Pit, all looks good. Tidy, no hot glue involved. Just noticed pin1 on PRG chip is missing, but IIRC it's NC anyway.

I noticed that PRG pin 1 was not connected on dodge danpei 2 and barcode world, so I made the same with this mod.

PRG pin 2 is also connected to 5V.

For the sunsoft 5B, I lifted pins 2 and 3, pins 27 and 32 are not traced so no need to lift it.


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Pit on December 04, 2013, 01:16:20 PM
Hey, I'm currently makin a second repro with a sunsoft FME7 (dodge danpei 2).

I put the eproms, but the game does not boot. I tried another set of eproms, no boot... I put the Pal version to test, it boots...

So the question is : will the japanese version of gimmick boot without the AY and the LS chips ?

Edit : Seeing the AY chip connections to the eprom, I think Japanese gimmick will not boot without AY chip, AY chip is a part of the mapper needed to make the game work ; am I right ?


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: famifan on December 04, 2013, 05:15:56 PM
sigh

i can't recall what type of gimmick i have on my fme7 based barcode donor repro.

Post Merge: December 04, 2013, 05:17:53 PM
Edit : Seeing the AY chip connections to the eprom,
AY chip needs a connection to data/adress bus. Nothing special i guess


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Pit on December 04, 2013, 05:24:08 PM
Ok, so japanese Gimmick should work without AY ? I tried many eproms, verified my CHR and PRG files, the game does not boot :(.



Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Pit on December 05, 2013, 06:24:40 AM
 :'( I put again hebereke eprom, nothing works anymore. It's the second fme7 pcb that I supposely "killed" :fire: :redcart:. Nothing visually destroyed, all traces ok, eproms check ok...

I don't understand why it doesn't work. The cartmod with sunsoft 5B was a succes, but with a fme7 barcode world or dodge danpei 2, I can't manage to get gimmick jap work.

Gonna give up this for a while, time to calm down^^.


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: keropi on December 05, 2013, 08:16:50 AM
great work on the 5B cart!

I have made a Barcode World repro (with the valuable help of 80'sFreak) and it works fine... haven't tried it without the AY chip though... also there is no need at all to rewire the eproms, just solder them in place
Mine looks like that... a spaghetti monster  ;D but it fits just fine in the shell  :mario:

(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/restqp/famicom%20eprom%20translations/IMG01888-20130322-1243_zps9b32fc8c.jpg) (http://s125.photobucket.com/user/restqp/media/famicom%20eprom%20translations/IMG01888-20130322-1243_zps9b32fc8c.jpg.html)

(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/restqp/famicom%20eprom%20translations/IMG01897-20130328-1207_zps9ca0f785.jpg) (http://s125.photobucket.com/user/restqp/media/famicom%20eprom%20translations/IMG01897-20130328-1207_zps9ca0f785.jpg.html)


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Pit on December 05, 2013, 08:45:10 AM
Thanks for pics !

I made exactly the same with two barcode world, no rewiring on eproms (27C020 for PRG and 27C1001 for CHR), the screen stays definitaly grey^^.

Your cartmod is nice ! eeproms used ?


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: keropi on December 05, 2013, 11:34:09 AM
thanks, yep I used SST eeproms, I was getting really annoyed by failing uv eproms...
not sure about the grey screen, maybe the AY "responce" is really needed  ???


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: famifan on December 06, 2013, 08:14:50 AM
Game can check presence of AY chip by writing/reading into it's registers.
ahaha ;D
sounds like it deserves some ROM patching

what do you think about the chance of crashing normal system operation by sending R/W commands to non-connected AY chip?


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: 80sFREAK on December 09, 2013, 08:27:16 AM
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/restqp/famicom%20eprom%20translations/IMG01897-20130328-1207_zps9ca0f785.jpg) (http://s125.photobucket.com/user/restqp/media/famicom%20eprom%20translations/IMG01897-20130328-1207_zps9ca0f785.jpg.html)
Nice. But. A trick picked from... Drakon(?) LOL, but improoved - use paper masking tape over the contacts to protect them of tin, when soldering.

Hint

(http://i43.tinypic.com/2hnxc39.jpg)


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Pit on December 09, 2013, 12:51:06 PM
Quote from: 80sFREAK

Nice. But. A trick picked from... Drakon(?) LOL, but improoved - use paper masking tape over the contacts to protect them of tin, when soldering.

Hint

(http://i43.tinypic.com/2hnxc39.jpg)

Oh ! Seeing that I cleaned my cartmod connector with AY chip that didn't work, it works !  :'( :'( :'( Happy I am.


I have a little problem with the gimmick repro based on a sunsoft 5B, extra sounds seems to be a bit weak.

Seeing the sound mixer scheme, could I replace the 100K resistor with a lower value for example ?



Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: keropi on December 09, 2013, 07:05:56 PM
[...]
Nice. But. A trick picked from... Drakon(?) LOL, but improoved - use paper masking tape over the contacts to protect them of tin, when soldering.

Hint

(http://i43.tinypic.com/2hnxc39.jpg)

aha!
thanks for that, had no idea I could avoid such solder mess so easily :-[


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Pit on December 31, 2013, 11:51:22 AM
great work on the 5B cart!

I have made a Barcode World repro (with the valuable help of 80'sFreak) and it works fine... haven't tried it without the AY chip though... also there is no need at all to rewire the eproms, just solder them in place
Mine looks like that... a spaghetti monster  ;D but it fits just fine in the shell  :mario:

(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/restqp/famicom%20eprom%20translations/IMG01888-20130322-1243_zps9b32fc8c.jpg) (http://s125.photobucket.com/user/restqp/media/famicom%20eprom%20translations/IMG01888-20130322-1243_zps9b32fc8c.jpg.html)

(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/restqp/famicom%20eprom%20translations/IMG01897-20130328-1207_zps9ca0f785.jpg) (http://s125.photobucket.com/user/restqp/media/famicom%20eprom%20translations/IMG01897-20130328-1207_zps9ca0f785.jpg.html)


Keropi, I I don't understand your wiring :(.

I explain :

- With a AY-3-8912, I made this scheme to make a gimmick! repro :

(http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/16/47/69/99/ay-3-810.png)



- When I look at your repro, I see that :

(http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/16/47/69/99/ay-3-811.png)

Am I wrong ?


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Elrinth on January 11, 2014, 05:48:43 PM
@keropi: I so happen to have a barcode world extra with an FME-7. Where did you get a AY chip however?


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: keropi on January 11, 2014, 09:45:47 PM
@Pit:

that's another 3k3 resistor to lower the volume , here is the schematic I used:

(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/restqp/famicom%20eprom%20translations/th_FINALSCHEMATICS_zpsf52ff009.jpg) (http://s125.photobucket.com/user/restqp/media/famicom%20eprom%20translations/FINALSCHEMATICS_zpsf52ff009.jpg.html)

not my image, I believe a member(s?) here has done that but I can't remember who


@Elrinth

I got it from a friend that was selling various chips...  but there are 2 sales here (http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?t=20497) and here (http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?t=19257)


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Elrinth on January 11, 2014, 11:48:16 PM
@keropi: thx for the reply, sadly that forum requires alot of work in order to actually be able to PM people or post in threads.
But on ebay I found this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/AY-3-8912-Programmable-Sound-Generator-Microchip-DIP28-IC-1pcs-/261337774593?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cd8f1fa01
Will it do?
Next up I'll need an programmer, do you have any to recommend which is pretty cheap? Would like one which can take both eprom and eeprom. Need to be able to program the ay-chip and also program some new chips for the gimmick prg and chk, right?


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: keropi on January 12, 2014, 09:03:03 AM
Well, it's not that bad... I've activated your account there and you only need to make a couple of posts to be able to PM (user introduction forum is a great way to get 2 posts)
That eBay link looks fine, I don't see why this 38912 wouldn't work  ;D
Actually the 38912 doesn't need to be programmed by the user at all, "programmable" means that the host environment can give it sound parameters and the chip will produce sounds according to these. You just solder it correctly and nothing more.

About the programmer, any willem one will do the job just fine, the only problem is that you will need a pc with a parallel port to use it (unless you pay more and get a usb programmer)
The cheapest I found is this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261369810445 but personally I'd recommend you go to the next cheapest option instead: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370974624078
If parallel port is a problem then you need something like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/310423401316 which is completelly USB operated. I have this programmer and works perfect in win7/x64

edit: if you want a programmer just for this repro I can program them for you and send them over, you only need to provide the materials  ;)


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Elrinth on January 12, 2014, 01:37:02 PM
I'm really thankful you could do this for me! I've got more projects I'd like to do so a eeprom programmer would be sweet to own.
I've got my eyes on a TL866 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USB-MiniPro-TL866CS-Universal-BIOS-Programmer-EEPROM-FLASH-8051-AVR-GAL-PIC-SPI-/251290816206?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a82198ece)
The reason I select this one is because I saw it has Windows 8 support, and it's USB.
I might consider the TL866A aswell if it's a requirement: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MINI-PRO-USB-TL866A-UNIVERSAL-EEPROM-PROGRAMMER-ISP-ICSP-SPI-MCU-GAL-/121178338817?pt=UK_Computing_Other_Computing_Networking&hash=item1c36cab601

Here's TL866 support list: http://www.autoelectric.cn/minipro/MiniProSupportList.txt

Will this one work?


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: keropi on January 12, 2014, 02:06:16 PM
Haven't use any of them but both work with 8bit eproms and eeproms that the famicom/nes needs. You shouldn't have any problems with any of the two.
BUT , only the expensive one says it supports win8 and 64bits OS so maybe you want to take that one...


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Elrinth on January 12, 2014, 02:35:26 PM
Ahh yes you are right... I'll grab one closer to when I get salary so I know how much money I've got to live on :D thank you for your help.
I already ordered a AY-chip now. Also ordered a desoldering pen (heats up and sucks in previous soldering tin) and some 0.5 mm soldering tin. I already have a soldering pen since before which has worked in previous projects.
Edit: Ordered an AY-3-8912 for $8.99

next question I have is what kind of eeproms will work, could you nudge me in the right direction? will these work? http://www.ebay.com/itm/WINBOND-W27E040-27E040-27C040-4MBIT-EEPROM-DIP-32-X-10pcs-/151094092021?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item232de8e0f5 or are they too large? can I use the same type of eeprom for PRG as for CHR?
I read someone used: 27c1001 128K for CHR and 27c020 256k for PRG.  Do you have to use the exact size eproms??

Edit: Threw away an order of an TL866A @ $62.48 (429 SEK) from China. Gonna take like a month until I recieve the product.
Ordered from here:
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Lowest-Price-FreeShipping-100-Original-TL866A-Willem-BIOS-USB-Universal-Programmer-Support-ICSP-FLASH-EEPROM-SOP/817846_955323058.html

now I need the EEPROM-ICs, will the ones I specified above do (27c1001 128K for CHR and 27c020 256k for PRG)?
Edit:I ordered: 10x SST 27SF010 1Mbit EEPROM ($17.99) and 5x W27C020-70 2Mbit EEPROM ($9.99).

Also do I have to get some resistors or capacitors between the FMA-7 and the YM-IC? if so, how strong do they have to be?

@keropi: from what i can see on your pic you decided to just cut of the previous eproms instead of desoldering them. I've got a desoldering pen so I can actually remove the previous pins and reuse the slots, can I do this or will it not help since I need to connect the AY-chip?

Also I see you are using 5 resistors and one capacitor at 10 pikoFarad 16V. Gonna check what strength the resistors are in a moment, just need some guide somewhere because I forgot how to read ohms from the colours.
It looks like the resistors you are using are (i might be seeing wrong on red and orange, it's hard to tell):
(2x) orange, orange, red finally gold... which means: 3 , 3 , 100 , 5%... so 330 ohm +-5%
(2x) brown , black, orange finally gold... which means: 1 , 0 , 1000 , 5%... so 1000 ohm +-5%
(1x) brown , black, red finally gold... which means: 1 , 0 , 100 , 5%... so 100 ohm +-5%
I will need these resistors and caps aswell, or?

On the BarCodeWorld cart there is already 2 resistors (both are the same, but they are different in size, that doesn't matter right?):
(2x) brown , black , orange finally gold... which means: 1 , 0 , 1000 , 5%.. so 1000 ohm +-5%


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: famifan on January 16, 2014, 09:36:23 AM
On the BarCodeWorld cart there is already 2 resistors (both are the same, but they are different in size, that doesn't matter right?):
bigger size means bigger ability of power dissipation. But it's not your case :)


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: keropi on January 16, 2014, 05:21:22 PM
On my cart I used SST 27SF010 and 27SF020 eeproms, work really good and I am sure yours will work just fine.
The old mask roms were desoldered completely, I did not cut legs and solder on them btw , the pins you see on the back are the eeprom pins.

The values of the components are marked on the design I used, no need to count color bands:

3x 3.3K resistors
3x 1K resistors
1x 10uf/16v capacitor

You don't need any other resistors/caps and you don't need to mess with any on the Barcode World pcb. All the resistor/caps go to the audio mixing circuit.
Basically all you need is to follow the schematic, it explains everything very simply:

(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/restqp/famicom%20eprom%20translations/th_FINALSCHEMATICS_zpsf52ff009.jpg) (http://s125.photobucket.com/user/restqp/media/famicom%20eprom%20translations/FINALSCHEMATICS_zpsf52ff009.jpg.html)



Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Elrinth on January 16, 2014, 08:50:44 PM
Oh okay, so I'll be needing the following IC modules aswell:
7474 and 74139

@7474 Will this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/20-x-74LS74-7474-Dual-D-Edge-Triggered-Flip-Flop-IC-/250887389729?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6a0dc221
or this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-74HC74N-7474-74HC74-Dual-D-Type-Flip-Flop-with-Set-and-Reset-DIP-14-/300730559747?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4604f02d03
work?

@74139 this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-pcs-74LS139-74139-DUAL-2-LINE-TO-4-LINE-Decode-Demult-/110909834844?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d2bdc65c
work? :)

Do these things have to be programmed or are they preprogrammed logic ICs? Sorry I don't know much about electronics and I forgot most I learnt in school :D

I'll be needing tons of thin cable aswell, but i think my big bro who works as electrician can fix that for me.
here's more YM chip incase I wanna create more than one gimmick cart:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=261082832247&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: keropi on January 16, 2014, 10:19:18 PM
yep those 74xxxx chips will work and they don't need any programming at all, just connect them correctly  ;)
As for cable you can always sacrifice an old IDE/FLOPPY computer cable  ;D


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Pit on January 17, 2014, 07:09:35 AM
Thank you Keropi for the schemes :).



Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Elrinth on January 17, 2014, 09:42:37 AM
awesome, I bought the above I wrote. Plus I ordered 100 3.3k resistors from: http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-x-Resistors-3-3K-3K3-Ohms-OHM-1-4W-5-Carbon-Film-/260830751104?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cbab96980
and 100 1k resistors from: http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-x-Resistors-1K-Ohms-OHM-1-4W-5-Carbon-Film-/250870867251?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6911a533
and capacitors: http://www.ebay.com/itm/300553631232

$1.49 USD (10,05 SEK) for 100 x 3.3k ohm resistors
$1.49 USD (10,05 SEK) for 100 x 1k ohm resistors
$4.49 AUD (29,64 SEK) for 100 x 10uF/16v capacitors
$6,99 USD (47,13 SEK) for 10 x 7474 ICs
$3,50 USD (23,60 SEK) for 5 x 74139 ICs

Now I must have all the required gear finally, haha :) Thank you very much for the help keropi. I'll get back to this thread when stuff starts happening. Probably gonna take a month or two before I recieve the stuff as it was all free shipping.


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: keropi on January 18, 2014, 12:56:56 PM
heh, glad I could help , even if it's answering questions of you both...
I think it's jpx72 made that awesome gimmick schematic btw  :mario:


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: volk on January 22, 2014, 06:30:42 AM
Make this spagetti monster  :D Thx for idea.
(http://pp.vk.me/c322827/v322827660/935f/b0ZbAGpnKLw.jpg)


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: keropi on January 22, 2014, 01:39:36 PM
great! a real 5B is indeed helpful...  :coin:


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Pit on January 22, 2014, 01:55:46 PM
Good job Volk ;)

5B is quite more simple to build^^. But it requires the luck to get one :redcart:

I compared my 5B and AY-8910/12 repros, 5B repro sounds better to my ears, all sounds are really weel balanced. Depending on the system used (famicom, famicom AV or Nes), AY repro has a few sounds weaker.



Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: volk on January 23, 2014, 08:19:40 AM
Agreed. I compare my repro sound with original - they same!
Emulator videos and flash cartriges sounds different.
Completed repro:
(http://pp.vk.me/c608528/v608528660/11f7/LaBcR-EbARw.jpg)


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Pit on January 23, 2014, 08:33:27 AM
Really good label :D.


Post Merge: January 23, 2014, 08:47:44 AM
Here's mine :

(http://www.ultimate-consoles.fr/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-6082-0-77136900-1388855376_thumb.jpg)

and the NES version :

(http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/16/47/69/99/imag1723.jpg)



Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: xIceMan on October 08, 2015, 05:07:59 PM
I hate to dig this topic up but I wanted to make a Dark Gimmick repro but the problem is, the Gremlins 2 Donor is Sunsoft 5A board and I've connected AY-3-8912 like this:
(http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/16/47/69/99/ay-3-810.png)

But the expansion sound still not there.
Do I have to connect anything to the 5A as well or won't this work?
What about Clock Pin? Does it only go the 74LS74?
Help appreciated.


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: jensma on October 08, 2015, 07:16:19 PM
What a strange coincidence, I'm planning to do a Gimmick repro with full sound too  ;D I'm currently waiting for the AY-3-8912 to arrive.

Have you seen this? http://i.imgur.com/nbbLp.jpg You could try to trace the wires, maybe that helps? - just realized it's a FME-7 donor, sorry

Did you noticed that the CHR and PRG are swapped? - edit: since you're able to test the game you obviously noticed that

nesdev got some info about the wiring, quite a long read, though: http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3480 - edit: argh, it's about the FME-7, too.  :-X

Ah, have a look at this: http://i317.photobucket.com/albums/mm381/Tedescucci/GimmickAudio.jpg
Several pins are connected differently on that PCB  :o


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: ImATrackMan on October 09, 2015, 01:29:53 AM
I'd really suggest using YM chips (YM2149 or YMZ284/294) to get accurate channel volumes and pitches since you can just divide the clock internally (already divided on 284 and 294) and the DAC is more logarithmic. The SN5B is a YM2149, not an AY-3-8910.


Title: Re:
Post by: jensma on October 09, 2015, 07:01:58 AM
Using one of those chips would require an additional amplifier, wouldn't it?


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: xIceMan on October 09, 2015, 09:04:48 AM
I'd really suggest using YM chips (YM2149 or YMZ284/294) to get accurate channel volumes and pitches since you can just divide the clock internally (already divided on 284 and 294) and the DAC is more logarithmic. The SN5B is a YM2149, not an AY-3-8910.
Are there any schematics on those YM chips?

Also, will this even work with a Sunsoft 5A? I know that AY-3-8912 works with FME-7 and Sunsoft 5B can be modded easily without another chip.


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: ImATrackMan on October 10, 2015, 03:48:20 AM
Using one of those chips would require an additional amplifier, wouldn't it?
Yes it would, but the 5B also contains an internal amplifier so this is accurate to the real hardware.
Are there any schematics on those YM chips?

Also, will this even work with a Sunsoft 5A? I know that AY-3-8912 works with FME-7 and Sunsoft 5B can be modded easily without another chip.
The YM2149 has an identical pinout to the AY-3-8910 (pin 26 to GND for half-clock), YMZs have the BDIR and BC2 pins combined. This doesn't matter, /CS and /WR (pins 1 and 2) are to be grounded and A0 connected to Address 15, with audio output on a single pin.

Yes, it will work with the 5A


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: xIceMan on October 10, 2015, 03:57:44 PM
Yup, it works now. Forgot to connect Pin 3 to 5V and PRG A13 was connected to the cartridge connector directly. Thanks for the help!


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: xIceMan on October 31, 2015, 01:20:49 PM
I got a regular Batman with a 5B chip today and was wondering how to connect the CHR/PRG there, since both are 28 Pins.

Heres what I did and it's working fine now:

PRG (27c040): Lifted pin 1,2,24,30,31,32
Pin 1 is NC
Pin 2 to Hole 22 (A16)
Pin 24 to Hole 14 (GND)
Pin 30 to 5B Pin 32
Pin 31/32 to Hole 28 (VCC)

CHR (27c040): Lifted Pin 1,2,24,30,31,32
Pin 1 is NC
Pin 2 to Hole 22 (A16)
Pin 24 to Hole 14 (GND)
Pin 30 to 5B Pin 26
Pin 31/32 to Hole 28 (VCC)


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: HVC-Man on October 31, 2015, 01:33:21 PM
Make sure you pad the Gimmick PRG across that 4Mbit EPROM, or you may run into issues.

1Mbit 28pin always seems to be Nintendo UNROM / non-JEDEC style. A16 is on hole 22. If using a 27C010, wire pin 2 to hole 22, wire pin 24 to ground. Wire pin 1, 32 and 31 to hole 28 for VCC. Setting those extra pins to VCC sometimes helps prevent odd issues. Do this for both chips. For PRG A17, connect PRG EPROM pin 30 to 5B pin 32.

The audio I don't have instructions on, I never did find a cartridge with a 5B inside.


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: xIceMan on October 31, 2015, 01:45:19 PM
Someone please slap me. Since the pinout is reversed to regular NES MaskROMs I acidently connected the GND pins to D3.  ::)

I've changed that and all is working.

P.S. I know how to connect 5B audio and here's how:
(http://i66.tinypic.com/k0r29v.png)


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: jensma on October 31, 2015, 02:41:05 PM
*slap*


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Pit on November 16, 2015, 04:14:39 AM
Oooohh what a bad boy come here....

:SLAP:


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Dom on November 23, 2015, 08:06:58 PM
Just picked up a Dodge Danpei and took a look insinde....
To my surprise this cart had a 5B chip :'(
Best thing to do with this great discovery was, of course, transforming it to a Gimmick cart  ;)

Here's my result

(http://fs5.directupload.net/images/151121/temp/v8zrvk64.jpg) (http://www.directupload.net/file/d/4179/v8zrvk64_jpg.htm)

(http://fs5.directupload.net/images/151121/temp/6vqun7jt.jpg) (http://www.directupload.net/file/d/4179/6vqun7jt_jpg.htm)

(http://fs5.directupload.net/images/151121/temp/jobrup7b.jpg) (http://www.directupload.net/file/d/4179/jobrup7b_jpg.htm)

For CHR I used a 27C010A, for PRG a 27C2001.

Following Pit's great instrutions this is what I did:

Just solder in CHR, no need to rewire anything

On PRG bend up pins 1, 2, 22, 24, 30, 31, 32

On board solder wires to Mask ROM (28 pin) holes 20, 22, 28

Connect holes to pins (27C2001)
----------------------------------------------
(CE)  20 -> 24     (OE)
(A16) 22 -> 2       (A16)
(VCC) 28 -> 31, 32 (WE, VCC)

Connect 27C2001 pin (CE) 22 -> 16 (GND) (don't lift pin 16!)

Leave 27C2001 pin 1 floating

Connect 27C2001 pin (A17) 30 -> 5B pin 32

Make audio circuit as shown in xIceMan's picture above

Cut trace between pin 45 (Sound-out) and 46 (Sound-in)

Lean back and enjoy a full audio Gimmick  ;D

Really helpful thread!

Thanks a ton to all people who spent their time on this great project!  :-*


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: xIceMan on November 23, 2015, 09:39:17 PM
Great job but you should disconnect cartridge pin 45 and 46 circuit. They're normally connected together. Scratch the solder off until it's not connected anymore. ;)


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Dom on November 24, 2015, 09:37:42 AM
Thanks for this inforamtion  :D
I updated my post.
Will cut the trace this evening  ;)


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: xIceMan on November 29, 2015, 10:10:35 AM
Updated my post above for better compatibility. Works like a charm on a 28pin MaskROM now.


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: jensma on December 02, 2015, 05:53:17 PM
Hey there!

I compiled a comprehensive guide for creating Gimmick-Repros. With a lot of help from xIceMan and other guys from this forum. Feel free to share it!

http://jensma.de/nesrepro/gimmick/ (http://jensma.de/nesrepro/gimmick/5B/guy.gif)


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: JetBlackSVW on December 03, 2015, 03:55:05 PM
Thank you very much for the guide!

Maybe I will build one next year, but that sound circuit seems like a lot of work.


Title: Re:
Post by: jensma on December 03, 2015, 04:51:24 PM
Yeah, it kinda is when you don't get a 5B. :/

It's worth the effort though :D


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: jensma on April 27, 2016, 05:01:41 PM
Hey there!

Since I kinda disliked my Gimmick repro based off a FME-7 I made a pcb for it.

This is kinda the "beta"-Version of it, but it works just fine (the silkscreen '56pF should actually be 10nF and you have to connect two pins of the prg rom, see this photo -> http://jensma.de/upload/files/9kooqcpuxjaRwRPbsJrR0.jpg (http://jensma.de/upload/files/9kooqcpuxjaRwRPbsJrR0.jpg) :) )

You have to transplant your FME-7 and the capacitor of your donor card. The eproms (I used two 27C020) can be soldered in without any rewiring. Since there was no space left for any more DIP packages (except the AY-3-8912) I had to use soic's for the 74LS74 and 74LS139.

If anybody want a pcb or two - just drop me a pn. I live in germany and international shipping should be around $3.60, the price for one pcb is $3  ;D

PS: The pcb has the exact thickness of original famicom-pcbs and it fits perfectly into a sunsoft-shell. In addition to that it's ENIG-plated!  :star: :star: :star:


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Ryo on April 28, 2016, 11:00:44 AM
Hey there!

Since I kinda disliked my Gimmick repro based off a FME-7 I made a pcb for it.

This is kinda the "beta"-Version of it, but it works just fine (the silkscreen '56pF should actually be 10nF and you have to connect two pins of the prg rom, see this photo -> http://jensma.de/upload/files/9kooqcpuxjaRwRPbsJrR0.jpg (http://jensma.de/upload/files/9kooqcpuxjaRwRPbsJrR0.jpg) :) )

You have to transplant your FME-7 and the capacitor of your donor card. The eproms (I used two 27C020) can be soldered in without any rewiring. Since there was no space left for any more DIP packages (except the AY-3-8912) I had to use soic's for the 74LS74 and 74LS139.

If anybody want a pcb or two - just drop me a pn. I live in germany and international shipping should be around $3.60, the price for one pcb is $3  ;D

PS: The pcb has the exact thickness of original famicom-pcbs and it fits perfectly into a sunsoft-shell. In addition to that it's ENIG-plated!  :star: :star: :star:

Cool!!! :o


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: ImATrackMan on May 03, 2016, 06:17:53 PM
(except the AY-3-8912) I had to use soic's for the 74LS74 and 74LS139.

I'm amazed by the dedication necessary to make repro boards specifically for Gimmick!, but I'm still surprised by the prevalence of the AY when Gimmick uses an equivalent of the YMZ. Using one would have cut down on board size and necessary components.


Title: Re: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: jensma on May 03, 2016, 07:03:50 PM
(except the AY-3-8912) I had to use soic's for the 74LS74 and 74LS139.

I'm amazed by the dedication necessary to make repro boards specifically for Gimmick!, but I'm still surprised by the prevalence of the AY when Gimmick uses an equivalent of the YMZ. Using one would have cut down on board size and necessary components.
Oh, I didn't know that. Well, too late  ;D


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Arkanix38 on May 04, 2016, 01:01:21 AM
Might have to grab one of these boards for when I feel like making something quickly. Been meaning to play Gimmick (without the obligatory pirate cart or spending all of my university fund)


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: xIceMan on May 04, 2016, 08:15:18 AM
Is there a schematic for the YMZ to use for gimmick?


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: jensma on May 04, 2016, 06:10:00 PM
Is there a schematic for the YMZ to use for gimmick?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Instrument_AY-3-8910#Variants

Some of the YMZ*-variants got pretty similar pinouts compared to the AY-3-8912. That's pretty handy, since they come in smaller packages like QFP. Unfortunatly I'm not able to find a place to buy them.  :(


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Pit on May 05, 2016, 09:24:38 AM
Great job on that !!


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: jensma on May 05, 2016, 11:40:25 AM
Great job on that !!

Thanks, but this is the work of the community and other nifty contributors. I just collected the bits and pieces and throw a pcb together.

PS: I sent new layouts to the factory yesterday. When I receive the pcbs and they work like intended I'll release the layout files for everyone to use.  ;D


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: ImATrackMan on May 14, 2016, 10:00:45 AM
What format are they? KiCAD, Eagle, Altium, etc?


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: jensma on May 15, 2016, 07:52:13 AM
What format are they? KiCAD, Eagle, Altium, etc?

KiCAD. Still waiting for the pcb's :)

Post Merge: May 17, 2016, 01:42:51 PM
The boards arrived and they're working  ;D Just drop your compenents in and solder them down.

Here's the kicad fesign files and plot files for manufacturing, as promised: http://jensma.de/shop/tutorials/gimmick.zip
The files are released under this license - http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/4.0/ - So be nice  :-*


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: number47 on May 21, 2016, 06:03:33 PM
I see you have a neat little shop for these boards. How much is the shipping (to Estonia)?


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: jensma on May 21, 2016, 07:01:21 PM
I see you have a neat little shop for these boards. How much is the shipping (to Estonia)?

3,20 :)
I do have some AY-3-8912's kicking around, if you need one  ;D


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Howard81 on June 12, 2016, 08:41:24 AM
Hi Jensma, I'd really be interested in a couple of your boards with shipping to the UK!  I've dropped you an enquiry through your website  ;D


Title: Re: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: jensma on June 12, 2016, 10:32:55 AM
Hi Jensma, I'd really be interested in a couple of your boards with shipping to the UK!  I've dropped you an enquiry through your website  ;D
Ah, alright. International shipping is 3,70. You can send me a pm here if you like :)


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: L___E___T on September 02, 2016, 07:33:13 AM
I'd really like one as well if it's not too late?


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Raverrevolution on September 02, 2016, 11:37:30 AM
I've been meaning to grab one of these as well if you're still selling and shipping them out.  Thank you.


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Pit on September 04, 2016, 07:23:14 PM
No agressivity in my words, but i can't stop thinking that even jensma does a great job, i'm disapointed to see this thread is turning into a shopping place.


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Arkanix38 on September 04, 2016, 07:30:31 PM
Agreed, ask jensma in Private Message or look on his website where he sells them.


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: xIceMan on September 04, 2016, 08:16:09 PM
Jensma's shop was taken down as he had problems with some people from what I know. Haven't heard from him after that via mail. So just PM or mail him.


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: jensma on October 24, 2016, 03:46:58 PM
Jensma's shop was taken down as he had problems with some people from what I know. Haven't heard from him after that via mail. So just PM or mail him.

Yup, unfortunatly. I'm still around though and I'll answer to mails :)


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Syco54645 on November 23, 2016, 12:51:29 PM
So I attempted this using a barcode world using 27c020s. Both PRG and CHR were 32 pin so I dropped the CHR in directly and for the PRG I rewired the CE leg to ground, game is not working, just a gray screen. Anyone have any insight here?


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: jensma on November 27, 2016, 02:59:01 PM
So I attempted this using a barcode world using 27c020s. Both PRG and CHR were 32 pin so I dropped the CHR in directly and for the PRG I rewired the CE leg to ground, game is not working, just a gray screen. Anyone have any insight here?

Hey there,

Have a look at this:
http://jensma.de/nesrepro/gimmick/

Cheers,
jensma


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Pit on November 29, 2016, 04:32:03 AM
So I attempted this using a barcode world using 27c020s. Both PRG and CHR were 32 pin so I dropped the CHR in directly and for the PRG I rewired the CE leg to ground, game is not working, just a gray screen. Anyone have any insight here?

With what I experienced reproducing Gimmick!, could be :

- 1st : solder flux on the cart connector, so try cleaning it the best as you can
- 2nd : bad wiring, so check all your connections !

This thread or jensma's website are really helpful for schematics.


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Syco54645 on November 30, 2016, 02:56:25 PM
So I attempted this using a barcode world using 27c020s. Both PRG and CHR were 32 pin so I dropped the CHR in directly and for the PRG I rewired the CE leg to ground, game is not working, just a gray screen. Anyone have any insight here?

Hey there,

Have a look at this:
http://jensma.de/nesrepro/gimmick/

Cheers,
jensma

My PRG socket is 32 pins and your guide doesn't cover that from what I can tell.

Post Merge: November 30, 2016, 02:58:00 PM
So I attempted this using a barcode world using 27c020s. Both PRG and CHR were 32 pin so I dropped the CHR in directly and for the PRG I rewired the CE leg to ground, game is not working, just a gray screen. Anyone have any insight here?

With what I experienced reproducing Gimmick!, could be :

- 1st : solder flux on the cart connector, so try cleaning it the best as you can
- 2nd : bad wiring, so check all your connections !

This thread or jensma's website are really helpful for schematics.

It has to be the wiring on the PRG side but jensma's site doesnt cover the 32 pin PRG on the board. I do not see anyone mention it in this thread either.


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Pit on December 01, 2016, 06:02:15 PM
You're right, i think i have a scheme on my computer, i'll post it soon.

Did you look on the Web to see the prg wiring ? I think it's more than just one signal to rewire with the 27c020

Post Merge: December 01, 2016, 06:13:25 PM
Just remembered, there's no need of rewiring on sunsoft fme7 32 pins prg/chr and 27c020


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Syco54645 on December 02, 2016, 12:15:16 PM
You're right, i think i have a scheme on my computer, i'll post it soon.

Did you look on the Web to see the prg wiring ? I think it's more than just one signal to rewire with the 27c020

Post Merge: December 01, 2016, 06:13:25 PM
Just remembered, there's no need of rewiring on sunsoft fme7 32 pins prg/chr and 27c020

Hey that worked! I had lifted CE and connected to the ground pin. Removed that jumper and wired into the hole and it works fine. No idea why but thanks! Perhaps Jensma could update his guide with this info.


Title: Re: Gimmick repro with sunsoft 5PB
Post by: Pit on December 02, 2016, 08:39:06 PM
Congrats ! Enjoy^^.