I think there should be some rules put in place in regards to the selling of modern "repros".
While I don't think the selling of such cartridges necessarily has to be the end of the world, if you go onto Nintendo Age and other websites that fully support such items, you can see that it has become a clusterf**k of sorts, which has been slowly ruining the hobby (As I like to think of it, it is a bunch of kiddies making and having wet dreams over products and variants that never existed in the first place).
My concerns about the modern "repros" are as follows:
1. With today's technology, it is quite simple to be producing items that look convincingly like the originals.
2. As with that above, a lot of "fans" are producing "variants" and what not (actually just taking artistic liberties with "repros") and it makes the situation very confusing at times, to attempt to determine if something is just a modern fan-product or something that was produced back in the day**
3. Producing "repros" is damaging towards collectors and the value of their collections. For some items, such as Super Mario Bros., bootlegs have existed for as long as the official game has existed. On the other hand, for other items such as Huang Di, a lot of the value is in the fact that the game is fun to play, it is rare, and bootlegs of it don't exist. Suddenly, some greedy bastard starts making repros to line his pockets, and a $50 game's value decreases to $10, if anyone even cares to buy an original anymore****
**Everyone always says that a true collector will be able to distinguish between a real and a fake, but that is simply just not the case, all the time. I could point to dozens of items in my personal collection and ask FW members if they know if it is real or not, and people wouldn't have a clue.
****This doesn't really matter for those that don't have a horse in the race, but for those that are collectors, of course they will be somewhat irked about this. Furthermore, I just find it extremely sad that people have a need / want / desire to collect modern fakes of games...I mean, what is the point of collecting something if you could just ask Joe Shmoe to crank out ten copies, at will?
RULES:
With that said, I think there should be some rules put in place about selling "repro" games.
1. The words "repro" should be put visibly on the cartridge front label. If this were done, I would have much less concern about "repros" being sold. This is such a small request to be made, I honestly don't understand why anyone would have a problem with obliging to it...
What about translations? Translated games are altered, too. Furthermore - if it's a fan translation the seller of the game makes money with someone else's work.
Quote from: jensma on October 04, 2015, 10:09:46 am
What about translations? Translated games are altered, too. Furthermore - if it's a fan translation the seller of the game makes money with someone else's work.
I'll have to take a look at your website later, it looks like it could be somewhat interesting.
Regarding your question, I don't see as much of a problem with translations for a number of reasons (and many on other forums hold similar feelings / positions), namely:
a. It adds value to the game (i.e. the game can now be enjoyed by those that cannot read (primarily) Japanese
b. it is not nearly as much of a threat to those that collect the old games for the sake of collecting. An English translation of a Japanese exclusive is not so likely to get confused for the real item.
Regarding the last part of "The seller of the game makes money with someone else's work", I personally feel it is a shitty scenario all around.
QuoteI'll have to take a look at your website later, it looks like it could be somewhat interesting.
Hahaha, don't expect too much. Most content is either not available for the public or in German :D
Quote from: jensma on October 04, 2015, 11:06:57 am
QuoteI'll have to take a look at your website later, it looks like it could be somewhat interesting.
Hahaha, don't expect too much. Most content is either not available for the public or in German :D
My minors study was in German and I studied at university there so... ;)
Looks like someone shit scared, that value of his "rarities" will bit the dust.
Hey, fcgamer, you should watch your language
Quotequick buck
so, whats the story here? Ah, i forgot, you are not interested in HOWTO ???
Quotefuck you, man
corrected this, one, good boy ::)
Quotesome greedy bastard
Saying person, who selling "$3 free shipping carts" for $$$ ;D
However, you looks very funny with your butthurt, so you can continue ;D
What about repros of games that don't exist on Famicom in nature? Not counting old bootlegs.
HVC-Man, don't bother, this guy have double standarts. It's ok for him to sell multicarts and other things, but when someone steped on "his territory"... This shit storm is kinda funny and it will become offensive, i believe mods will sort out mess.
Perhaps a forum for 80sFREAK and fcgamer only?. Really guys just :-* and make up. A sticky on the for sale thread explaining what an authentic cart looks like might be of some use though I have yet to purchase a bootleg that I am aware of. Then unfortunately it is up to the community what they would like to spend money on and there is not much that can be done to stop that.
famicompirateworld.com. I approve of this.
Sorry, i didn't start this flame ::)
Quote from: 80sFREAK on October 05, 2015, 12:14:13 am
HVC-Man, don't bother, this guy have double standarts. It's ok for him to sell multicarts and other things, but when someone steped on "his territory"... This shit storm is kinda funny and it will become offensive, i believe mods will sort out mess.
I am not the one copying unlicensed games and calling them "bootlegs". Things like Huang Di, those aren't bootlegs, are just unlicensed originals. And it's the same reason you refuse to answer my question to you about games like Videomation. If the game is a bootleg by your standards, then all Camerica games are also bootlegs, but that makes the NES version of the game equally a bootleg...
It is one thing to be selling historical items, it is another thing to be cranking out your own modern fakes and selling them.
Post Merge: October 05, 2015, 03:03:50 am
Regarding double standards: That is 80sFREAK with the double standards. He was whining about others making "repros" (of unreleased games, that never saw the light of day and thus could never be confused / compared with originals) without the word "reproduction" on it, yet when I've asked him if HIS "repros" are going to adhere to the same standard, both publically and privately, he has always ignored the question. That is a huge double standard.
Also, regarding him saying about $3 carts or whatever he is rambling about: Sometimes I get carts for cheap, other times I pay a large amount for them myself, it all depends on the cart and the situation. Sometimes I break even on the carts, sometimes I make a small profit, sometimes I lose money when all is said and done. If I sat and figured out the amount of money made compared to money lost, I would probably still be in the red. So 80sFREAK is just making assumptions based on nothing more than his own ignorance.
Quote from: fcgamer on October 05, 2015, 02:59:51 am... And it's the same reason you refuse to answer my question...
QuoteSo 80sFREAK fcgamer is just making assumptions based on nothing more than his own ignorance.
So... it's all about money. fcgamer, you are just so addicted to "monopoly" to sell bootlegs, it's a shame. ::)
Mods asked to ignore your posts and i'm trying, but your butthurt is so sweet and juicy ;D
P.S. fcgamer, you should chase aliexpress :o
Huh, monopoly? :o I think you should improve your comprehension skills.
http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=10007.0
http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=6217.0
There are many others selling unlicensed carts, old bootlegs, etc. on here, and I've purchased carts from several of these guys before, and don't really care at all about whether they sell their wares or not.
I also remember someone on here that was peddling Aliexpress wares and passing them off as rares and at high prices, and they had been told to take a hike.
But none of that matters for this discussion.
My issue with you boils down to the following: You want to make modern copies of unlicensed games, house them in generic game cases (and most of the unlicensed carts were housed in generic cases when first produced / sold), and then sell them for money. The things I see wrong with this idea, ***as a collector and also gaming historian***, are as follows:
1. First and foremost, the games you would be producing would flood the market and cause confusion for those that want to collect the genuine game carts. Unlike licensed Famicom games (where it is generally **very** easy to distinguish between a real and a bootleg),"reproing" carts and creating something similar to the unlicensed ones in circulation would be akin to all of the Lickle, Gimmick, etc repros floating around out there...not good for those that are trying to get the originals.
Because the game cases used by unlicensed makers changed over time (as an example, C&E used several different case designs, depending on the print run...the initial run is a special C&E shell, the later run is as generic as many pirate carts), making "repros" of rare unlicensed games and housing them in unlicensed/bootleg shells is the same as making a 1:1 Gimmick repro of a 1:1 Lickle repro. I honestly feel the only reason why less people here have been commenting on the issue is because as a whole, less people tend to collect the unlicensed Famicom games. But even holding that as true, it doesn't make it more acceptable to copy and do, as it just hurts collectors that want authentic carts in their collections.
2. I find it extremely telling of your intentions that you are so unwilling to address any of the issues posted your way. When asked if you would write "reproduction" on the label (an expectation that YOU saw fit when others were making "repros", you refused to answer, ignoring my comments in threads and also in the PM I sent you. When you refuse to address other measures to be taken so that your products couldn't be confused with legit versions, once again, I heard crickets.
I have been trying to reach out to discuss the matter like two adults, to find a solution that would satisfy every party involved, but your attitude is not helping matters any.
Sorry, fcgamer, i have no issues with you, so, please, keep your walls of text.
I'm very pleased by your "flood the market" and, yes, right now i making a new slice of history.
Quote from: 80sFREAK on October 05, 2015, 07:59:56 am
Sorry, fcgamer, i have no issues with you, so, please, keep your walls of text.
I'm very pleased by your "flood the market" and, yes, right now i making a new slice of history.
Okay, no walls of text, but one quick answer to one simple question, please:
You will write "reproduction" on your carts, right?
Also, do you own the rights to this IP, for the software you copy/steal?
Does anyone who sells a bootleg own the IP to the game for which they stole?
Quote from: SumixXam on October 05, 2015, 11:15:14 am
Does anyone who sells a bootleg own the IP to the game for which they stole?
Mitch, games like Pyramid 2, Huang Di, etc are
NOT bootlegs...they are original games, not stolen from anyone. It is the same as saying Tengen's Tetris or Road Runner or something on NES is a bootleg, just because it was made by Tengen...
I'm not referring to unlicensed originals. I'm referring to all the bootlegs being sold on our forums, your thread included. I'm really not trying to stir things up here but let's be honest. It doesn't matter when a bootleg was released. It still infringes on the IP of the creators and as such would go against one of your arguments about whether a game should be allowed to be sold.
The point I'm making is that this topic goes beyond personal interest which I am sorry to say seems to be the case here.
Strictly speaking...
Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bootleg)
something, as a recording, made, reproduced, or sold illegally or without authorization:
Merriam-Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bootleg)
to produce, reproduce, or distribute illicitly or without authorization
Both Huang Di and Tengen's Tetris were sold without authorization from Nintendo, so they fill the criteria.
Quote from: SumixXam on October 05, 2015, 11:55:11 am
I'm not referring to unlicensed originals. I'm referring to all the bootlegs being sold on our forums, your thread included. I'm really not trying to stir things up here but let's be honest. It doesn't matter when a bootleg was released. It still infringes on the IP of the creators and as such would go against one of your arguments about whether a game should be allowed to be sold.
The point I'm making is that this topic goes beyond personal interest which I am sorry to say seems to be the case here.
Mitch, if we stop allowing selling ALL bootleg games, then I will remove my wares, no problem...honestly, it is no problem to me, I couldn't care less about it...
Post Merge: October 05, 2015, 12:09:35 pm
I think you are misunderstanding, and the below definitions don't really say anything at all...
Those two below definitions are clearly about producing copies of software, books, dvds, etc without legal rights.
For an original work though, nothing illegal there, and it had been proved again and again in court during the life of the NES in the USA...if you want to challenge the matter further, Ghegs, I ask you: Is Videomation licensed or unlicensed (bootleg?)
Quote from: Ghegs on October 05, 2015, 12:00:23 pm
Strictly speaking...
Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bootleg)
something, as a recording, made, reproduced, or sold illegally or without authorization:
Merriam-Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bootleg)
to produce, reproduce, or distribute illicitly or without authorization
Both Huang Di and Tengen's Tetris were sold without authorization from Nintendo, so they fill the criteria.
Dave. The thing is, I have no issue with your sale thread and I truly don't think anyone else does either. What I do have an issue with is this back and forth squabble that's been happening over the past couple weeks. It's been progressing quite quickly lately and its sort of the attitude that we are trying to avoid (and that which NA is known for)
I don't believe the market will be flooded with reproductions fcgamer despite 80sFREAK 's best efforts and intentions. ☺
That said I don't see any harm with a reproduction marker somewhere on the reproduction to help out those collecting originals, whether pirates, fakes, bootlegs, reproductions, unlicensed or licensed. Stick disk-kun on it or something, he's been waiting for an opportunity ☺
Quote from: hvc01 on October 05, 2015, 01:19:57 pm
I don't believe the market will be flooded with reproductions fcgamer despite 80sFREAK 's best efforts and intentions. ☺
That said I don't see any harm with a reproduction marker somewhere on the reproduction to help out those collecting originals, whether pirates, fakes, bootlegs, reproductions, unlicensed or licensed. Stick disk-kun on it or something, he's been waiting for an opportunity ☺
In reality, that's all I am asking for, something that 80sFREAK had
brought up and demanded himself when the Nolan brothers were set to make "repro" of an unreleased game. And in the Nolans' case, I honestly feel there was a lot more value in the project, since it wasn't something that someone could go out and buy, since there was no "original" version, so to speak, aside from one or two beta copies. But every time I asked 80sFREAK about whether he was marking carts or not, it was met with silence.
Post Merge: October 05, 2015, 06:32:58 pm
Quote from: SumixXam on October 05, 2015, 12:50:37 pm
Dave. The thing is, I have no issue with your sale thread and I truly don't think anyone else does either. What I do have an issue with is this back and forth squabble that's been happening over the past couple weeks. It's been progressing quite quickly lately and its sort of the attitude that we are trying to avoid (and that which NA is known for)
@Mitch: I've been around over at Nintendo Age for years. Do you know why Nintendo Age has such problems, such issues? There is a huge divide between collectors, profiteers (resellers), and gamers there. No one respects the other groups of people coexisting, which in the end divides the community and promotes the sniping.
For me to be willing to remove truly infringing items from my sales thread in the name of keeping the integrity involving the Famicom collecting scene says a lot about my dedication to the community as a whole, etc.
If 80sFREAK puts reproduction on his carts, I'll let the issue go. But to start making and selling bootleg copies of legal (but unlicensed) games, in a manner where they can be easily confused with the originals, then I will keep fighting the fight, period.
Most of the people here don't collect unlicensed games, so of course the effort to get a cheap copy is more appealing than paying $40 or $50 for an original, and waiting two years until you can find one; but the thing you and others are forgetting, is you are talking with someone that has tracked down 320 or 340 or whatever of the approximately 400 unlicensed games out there on Famicom. So this is a situation / problem concerning collectors.
What is the difference between repro of "unreleased prototype"(it's quite easy to make one, by creating story behind and hardware), unlicensed "originals" and "translations"?
Chegs, you forgot that Pyramid is rip-off of Columns.
Those, who saying, that Tengen Tetris is "original" should read page on wiki ;D It is no more original than endless hacks of Mario.
fcgamer, i have nothing to discuss with you, until you figure out how "fast burning chips and solder couple wires" and read some basic wikipedia articles.
Quote from: 80sFREAK on October 05, 2015, 09:52:43 pm
What is the difference between repro of "unreleased prototype"(it's quite easy to make one, by creating story behind and hardware), unlicensed "originals" and "translations"?
Chegs, you forgot that Pyramid is rip-off of Columns.
Those, who saying, that Tengen Tetris is "original" should read page on wiki ;D It is no more original than endless hacks of Mario.
fcgamer, i have nothing to discuss with you, until you figure out how "fast burning chips and solder couple wires" and read some basic wikipedia articles.
80sFREAK, good idea about the wiki article. Let's read:
In an interview, Ed Logg notes that the Tengen version of Tetris was built completely from scratch, using no source code or material from the original game.. Yup, original.
Also, Columns would be like Magic Jewelry, not like Pyramid. Let's compare:
(Columns)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmIucANqxaE
(Pyramid)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXaam_EeV5U
Totally different. Obviously Pyramid is a Tetris-inspired game, with a twist, but the same could be said of all the other licensed Tetris-eque / inspired puzzle games of the time.
Quote from: fcgamer on October 05, 2015, 12:02:53 pmI think you are misunderstanding, and the below definitions don't really say anything at all...
Those two below definitions are clearly about producing copies of software, books, dvds, etc without legal rights.
They say plenty, and they clearly talk about selling without authorization. Even the term itself originally comes from smuggling and selling alcohol to locations where it's forbidden by law, or to get around taxes.
I have no idea what Videomation is. Looks like a crappy drawing program?
^^^The significance of Videomation is it is one Nintendo / Famicom game that has a unique story behind it. On Famicom, it was unlicensed, published by the same company that published Game Genie, the Codemasters games, etc on Famicom. But on the Nintendo in the USA, it was a licensed product, picked up and published by a licensed Western company, whereas the other games (the Codemasters titles) remained unlicensed.
Throughout, 80sFREAK has been arguing off and on that it is okay to copy (i.e. steal) and repro unlicensed games, since they are just "bootlegs" / "pirates" / whatever you call it, irregardless on whether the games actually ARE pirates (i.e. they steal code and other things from other games), or are built independently without stolen IP (like Huang Di, for example). But by the definition he defined elsewhere regarding unlicensed games = bootlegs / pirates, by equating these two as one, it means that Videomation has to be a pirate / bootleg as well, yet it was licensed by Nintendo in the west :o Now I don't know about you, but it simply doesn't make sense to me.
So Videomation published unlicensed gamesin Japan and licensed games in the west.
...what about it?
Yeah, seems pretty clear-cut to me. The NES version is legitimate, while the Famicom version is a bootleg (If we go by the strict definition of the word). There's plenty of games that were released on NES but never got an official Famicom release, yet pirate FC carts of them exist.
N.B. I do think marking carts with some kind of hint as to its origin, be it a logo or disclaimer or just changing the year, is just good practice (and advertisement). The question of "can you bootleg a bootleg" is a touch more philosophical in nature.
The thing is with marking a label - what's to stop someone stickering it or just making a new label? isn't it a bit moot?
As I saw it mentioned above as well - CodeMasters games are NOT bootlegs. They are a UK-based developer / publisher and many NES games came from them back in the day just as legit as a Capcom USA release. The difference is that they figured out how to circumvent the lockout chip (they would backward engineer all hardware even beyond Megadrive).
So in the US - they actively chose not to pay the aggressive licensing fees that many developers/publishers felt were already exploitative but had no choice but to pay. So when their products were successful in the PAL markets via the official route, they tried to go it alone in the North American markets maintain margin, hence the situation. They are not really bootlegs in the sense of how Magic Dragon / KickMaster could be considered, made by a little outfit in a pretty much unsupported market.
I have a CodeMasters unreleased pre-alpha cartridge from late Megadrive era, from one of the Producers there at the time, who's told me about all sorts of interesting things about NES days.
Care to share some pictures of the pre alpha cartridge? :)
If the Codemasters games are not bootlegs (my opinion), then the Sachen games, Idea-Tek games, Micro Genius games, Asder games, etc are also NOT bootlegs. The latter software houses were from Taiwan, the former from the UK, but otherwise the stories are the same...not wanting to pay the money so they circumvented the lockout chip. Some of the Sachen games have infringing IP (Rocman X, Gaiapolis), but the others are all using original IP.
Regarding your point on marking a label: I think this very thread (as well as the others on here regarding the subject) show why although it might initially seem a moot point, marking the labels would actually be quite useful.
Not enough collectors (in the West anyway) care about collecting full sets of unlicensed original games, or even collecting more than a few for the novelty of it. As such, although many of these games are incredibly rare compared to their licensed kin, most are overlooked aside from a few popular titles (and as such, most don't sell for huge gobs of cash, aside from the popular titles like Super Mario World). j
So due to the reasonably low price point for most carts, people that want the real deal would just buy the real ones anyway, not buying the repro and doing a label swap. But because the uniformity of unlicensed games is not so great, and even the same game might have had three different print runs in several different shells (all legit releases from the original manufacturer), the gesture of marking the cart would be a nod to those that do collect the originals, since otherwise, repro carts of unlicensed games + generic unlicensed / bootleg shells = something that looks like it could have been made at the factory.
Quote from: L___E___T on October 06, 2015, 06:48:18 am
The thing is with marking a label - what's to stop someone stickering it or just making a new label? isn't it a bit moot?
As I saw it mentioned above as well - CodeMasters games are NOT bootlegs. They are a UK-based developer / publisher and many NES games came from them back in the day just as legit as a Capcom USA release. The difference is that they figured out how to circumvent the lockout chip (they would backward engineer all hardware even beyond Megadrive).
So in the US - they actively chose not to pay the aggressive licensing fees that many developers/publishers felt were already exploitative but had no choice but to pay. So when their products were successful in the PAL markets via the official route, they tried to go it alone in the North American markets maintain margin, hence the situation. They are not really bootlegs in the sense of how Magic Dragon / KickMaster could be considered, made by a little outfit in a pretty much unsupported market.
I have a CodeMasters unreleased pre-alpha cartridge from late Megadrive era, from one of the Producers there at the time, who's told me about all sorts of interesting things about NES days.
I understand where the concerns come from, but a lot of the discussion seems to be related to semantics over what constitutes a non-original game or bootleg, and the vast majority of people on this forum just won't care.
Marking the labels in some way would be great, perhaps that could become a standard for newly produced repros/bootlegs/whatever sold here, but it would be a splash in the ocean given the number of high quality Chinese carts available (for all systems) nowadays. It could be a nice gesture though perhaps?
Personally I don't have a problem with any bootlegs/pirates, but then I'm not a collector. Again, I completely understand opposition to their sale here, or even their existence in the first place, I just don't see what can be realistically done about it. They will continue to exist and be produced regardless of the stance FW takes on it.
Quote from: chowder on October 06, 2015, 11:50:01 am...it would be a splash in the ocean given the number of high quality Chinese carts available (for all systems) nowadays....
Quote...They will continue to exist and be produced regardless of the stance FW takes on it.
Brilliant!
The Aliexpress stuff is hardly what I would call high quality. The late 1980s and early 1990s stuff was much superior quality.
I just don't think it is right to be making what amounts to 1:1 copies of games. The Aliexpress stuff isn't 1:1, though it sometimes can be confused with the originals. Likewise, if (when) people make 1:1 copies of the high-end licensed games, people always throw a fit, and rightfully so. For unlicensed games, the situation should be no different. Add some reproduction words or something like that to the label, and call it a day. it makes everyone happy in the end.
Quote from: fcgamer on October 06, 2015, 10:13:59 pm
The Aliexpress stuff is hardly what I would call high quality. The late 1980s and early 1990s stuff was much superior quality.
I'm not going to post links, but there are copies of high value SNES/SFC games on there that are (from the outside at least) pretty much identical to the originals. Maybe they haven't got around to Famicom yet, but if prices rise high enough I'm sure they would.
If those do come across to FW they will get some significant flak at best and a hasty removal at worst..
So, SMW for $79 is ok? ::)
Quote from: 80sFREAK on October 07, 2015, 09:09:16 am
So, SMW for $79 is ok? ::)
Is $69 for a reproduced fake okay? I paid
a lot for the one I am selling, and I always take best offers (everyone here always gets a discount when I sell, let's just be honest about it). So for the price I paid for mine (at auction), if I give a $10 discount and nix paypal fees, I make $20 profit at most. Lol, and you think I am getting rich on this?
fcgamer, i told you, i have nothing to discuss with you.
Quote from: 80sFREAK on October 07, 2015, 09:52:33 pm
fcgamer, i told you, i have nothing to discuss with you.
To be quite frank about it, it would behoove us both to cut out the disrespect and sniping with each other.
If you were in Taiwan, I would offer to meet with you for a beer or two, and to discuss things like men.
To stonewall me is just an act of immaturity on your side. If you were willing to talk, maybe we could have reached some middle ground that would be acceptable to us both; however, to just refuse to talk with me (even with PM), and just to pick fights, it totally changes my outlook on the "scene".
No more hardware p0rn pics for you or anyone else, when I finish scanning the Whirlwind Manu catalog, it will be shared privately, watermarks go on the future pictures I take, etc. This all stems from your general attitude and being unwilling to even talk, as men, about the subject at hand to reach a middle ground.
That settles that. Thread locked. If a mod disagrees, feel free to reopen, but I think this thread has served its purpose.