If this has the same compatibility issues as 8 BIT MUSIC POWER, I am throwing the biggest shit fit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMB5FK2YMVA
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CjMplcnUkAAz_jp.jpg:orig)
EDIT:
Got too excited too soon.
【ご注意】
*純正FC及びFC互換機のすべてに対応するものではありません。製造時期等により動作しない場合があります。
Looks like I'm making dedicated MMC3 boards to give to people who get this, because this is the exact same issue as 8BMP. Won't work in any NESes at all, if 8BMP did not work in your FC, then this won't either, and may even fry it. Expect the same shoddy cart manufacturing and factory bodges.
Compatibility issues? Do you have a link at hand? I can't seem to find any about this.
Quote from: jensma on May 24, 2016, 03:02:07 am
Compatibility issues? Do you have a link at hand? I can't seem to find any about this.
http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=12633.0
Many people here reported problems.
Damn, what a bummer. I hope the build quality is better for the next game.
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So they learned absolutely nothing from the last time? ???
I'm a sucker for moe stuff a lot of the time, but I don't think I'm going to buy another Famicom cart that doesn't work on my Famicom :P
As I said, I'm probably gonna buy it only because I've been waiting three years for the final release, and so I can make dedicated MMC3 boards for owners of the cartridge (assuming the shells are the same internally).
If anything, the two may use the exact same board just with a different ROM. Kira Kira is also an MMC3 game that (as far as I know) requires no WRAM or battery backup. if this is the case, I could start work now, but it would be kind of disappoonting to make the boards and have the carts use a different configuration.
I want this! When will it be available for order?!?!?
Right now. If you live in Japan, Amazon preorders are already open. No overseas shipping is available.
Quote from: mfm on May 24, 2016, 04:03:42 am
So they learned absolutely nothing from the last time? ???
Quote from: jensma on May 24, 2016, 03:27:16 am
Damn, what a bummer. I hope the build quality is better for the next game.
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I just think 8BMP was them testing the waters for a large scale release. It didn't really have any buildup or development log or really any announcement before it showed up, unlike KKSN which has had nearly 5 years of announcements and development. this is especially disappointing for somebody like me who is been closely following the development for much of that time especially considering that the "official" cartridges for v1 and all demo/event/prototype carts of v2 use a proper board with proper DIP ROMs and a CPLD MMC3. it would make sense that they use the Music Power boards, because it's in very much the same configuration as KKSN and they very likely have multiple thousand boards already produced.
EDIT: Also, I'm very serious about making dedicated TK/TLROM boards for this and 8BMP (I might just go full TKROM since there's no harm in doing it besides individual board cost.) I just have to learn how to create/edit components in KiCAD. I'm not waiting three years for a game release only to see it and not buy it. Excuse my Canadian, but that's horseshit.
Quote from: ImATrackMan on May 24, 2016, 04:44:08 am
EDIT: Also, I'm very serious about making dedicated TK/TLROM boards for this and 8BMP (I might just go full TKROM since there's no harm in doing it besides individual board cost.) I just have to learn how to create/edit components in KiCAD. I'm not waiting three years for a game release only to see it and not buy it. Excuse my Canadian, but that's horseshit.
I made a TKROM-Board just for fun some time ago. It's routed to accept 27C0X0-eeproms without rewiring and it's design is somewhat oriented on the original pcb.
Maybe we can work together on this?
Wow, you pretty much have this done. All you need are the measurements for the CC cartridge mounting holes. if you can fit those in, your board can be used in the CC cart and Nintendo cart shells. They're actually in a pretty terrible spot because they're right where the bottoms of the EPROMs would be.
(https://my.mixtape.moe/vnvrfk.jpeg)
What the.. that looks like a $3 pirate cart.
Exact measurements would be nice. My design requires a salvaged MMC3 though. Is the game already dumped? Is it based on a mmc3 mapper?
I can do both versions, suitable for a famicom- and for a cc-cart.
For MMC3 just use AX5202P. Works with all MMC3 games from what I know and can be bought from Aliexpress. ;)
But yeah, I plan to get the game too if it wasn't the same crap like 8BMP.
Despite my AV Famicom running 8-Bit Music Power without problems, I don't want this. The gameplay looks utterly boring. And I don't want to support a homebrew that doesn't 100% work on the original hardware it's designed for. That's just horrible and mindbogglingly stupid.
Quote from: jensma on May 25, 2016, 02:39:22 am
What the.. that looks like a $3 pirate cart.
Exact measurements would be nice. My design requires a salvaged MMC3 though. Is the game already dumped? Is it based on a mmc3 mapper?
I can do both versions, suitable for a famicom- and for a cc-cart.
Quote from: xIceMan on May 25, 2016, 06:51:40 am
For MMC3 just use AX5202P. Works with all MMC3 games from what I know and can be bought from Aliexpress. ;)
But yeah, I plan to get the game too if it wasn't the same crap like 8BMP.
The blob is just the "MMC3", with the SMT ROMs on the other side. I wouldn't go the AX5202 route. Space is an issue and notice the heavy parallax scroll in the KKSN stages. There's quite a high chance that's done with IRQs and IIRC, IRQs are one of the things missing from the 5202, so salvaged MMC3s are the way to go. The game's not dumped yet as it's not released, but yes, it is an MMC3 game.
Quote from: Ghegs on May 25, 2016, 07:36:07 am
Despite my AV Famicom running 8-Bit Music Power without problems, I don't want this. The gameplay looks utterly boring. And I don't want to support a homebrew that doesn't 100% work on the original hardware it's designed for. That's just horrible and mindbogglingly stupid.
The game will work on every Famicom, the issue is that the cartridges don't boot in certain circumstances because they use 3v ROM chips on a 5v circuit. It's also a pretty addictive game coming from someone who has v1.
If it's just the voltage problem - you could include a voltage regulator to step down to voltage from 5V to 3.3V pretty easily.
Since the cartridge gets it's 5V from two pins you have to cut the trace of Pin 1, too. I couldn't include this in the picture.
(BEWARE: MSPAINT!)
Quote from: jensma on May 26, 2016, 05:38:17 am
If it's just the voltage problem - you could include a voltage regulator to step down to voltage from 5V to 3.3V pretty easily.
perhaps, you forgot about I/O pins at least. They're still exposed to 5V instead of 3.3V. AFAIK, 5V could easily exceed absolute maximum rating provided by the manufacter in case of 3.3V ICs. Nobody knows how long these IC remain operatable in such conditions.. So, voltage shirt resistors should be installed around all I/O pins.
and the last questions: how about the mapper IC? will it be operatable under 3.3V?
Quote from: ImATrackMan on May 24, 2016, 12:39:41 am
EDIT:
Got too excited too soon.
【ご注意】
*純正FC及びFC互換機のすべてに対応するものではありません。製造時期等により動作しない場合があります。
Interpreting Google translate, this appears to mean "This cartridge may or may not work in every geniune Famicom or Famicom compatible, depending on the date of manufacture."
Who wants to spend $60 plus shipping for a crapshoot? It may work in my HVC-CPU-07 Famicom, it may work in my HVCN-CPU-02 AV Famicom, it may work in neither console.
NES Homebrew, while having its own problems, at least can be relied upon to work in just about any NES. Famicom hardware, outside the really early revisions, is pretty reliable and consistent. I guess they don't care about the quality of their product or their customer's experience so long as they are the only ones making Famicom carts. I do not feel like risking my beautifully working AV Famicom, which I bought new in 2003, because this company was too cheap to invest in proper 5v boards and chips. Almost every one of the Famicom's 60 pins expects a 5v logic level including both address and data buses.
The graphics look really good and the sound tracks are excellent. The game itself looks way too simple, however. No obstacles, no powerups, no enemies, it looks like an alpha-level build, not a full game.
Quote from: Great Hierophant on May 26, 2016, 06:50:54 pm
Quote from: ImATrackMan on May 24, 2016, 12:39:41 am
EDIT:
Got too excited too soon.
【ご注意】
*純正FC及びFC互換機のすべてに対応するものではありません。製造時期等により動作しない場合があります。
Interpreting Google translate, this appears to mean "This cartridge may or may not work in every geniune Famicom or Famicom compatible, depending on the date of manufacture."
Yeah that's how I understood it too. Total deal-breaker.
Quote from: Great Hierophant on May 26, 2016, 06:50:54 pmIt may work in my HVC-CPU-07 Famicom, it may work in my HVCN-CPU-02 AV Famicom, it may work in neither console.
the board revision is somewhat irrelevant because it "worked" and blew the PPU on my first -07 with a 2A03E CPU (replaced the PPU, now it boots but the graphics are fucked, so it probably blew the VRAM as well) and it doesn't boot at all on the second 07 with a 2A03G CPU. It seems to work on all AV Famicoms (they all have H CPUs) and most GPM-02s. PPU revision doesn't seem to matter since the G-revision replacement in my first FC displays
something, so as long as you have an original, square-button FC (no revision), or an FC with an E or H-rev CPU, chances are it'll work.
I really hope jensma gets the boards laid out, but if not, I'll definitely do it and give them out to anyone who has a non-working cart. The issue is on the cartridge, not the ROM itself.
Quote from: ImATrackMan on May 26, 2016, 11:16:06 pm
I really hope jensma gets the boards laid out, but if not, I'll definitely do it and give them out to anyone who has a non-working cart. The issue is on the cartridge, not the ROM itself.
Sure - I need some more info about the board. Does somebody has a picture of the other side of the pcb at hand?
Are there any supporting plastic poles beneath the pcb?
And I need some measurements:
Quote from: ImATrackMan on May 26, 2016, 11:16:06 pm
Quote from: Great Hierophant on May 26, 2016, 06:50:54 pmIt may work in my HVC-CPU-07 Famicom, it may work in my HVCN-CPU-02 AV Famicom, it may work in neither console.
the board revision is somewhat irrelevant because it "worked" and blew the PPU on my first -07 with a 2A03E CPU (replaced the PPU, now it boots but the graphics are fucked, so it probably blew the VRAM as well) and it doesn't boot at all on the second 07 with a 2A03G CPU. It seems to work on all AV Famicoms (they all have H CPUs) and most GPM-02s. PPU revision doesn't seem to matter since the G-revision replacement in my first FC displays something, so as long as you have an original, square-button FC (no revision), or an FC with an E or H-rev CPU, chances are it'll work.
Not all AV Famicoms use rev H chips, some use rev G chips, as shown in the first photo on this page : http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1592.480 (you may need to hover over image with mouse). If it blew the PPU on your rev E -07, then even if it worked it is still quite dangerous, which is even worse. My AV Famicom uses rev H chips, so I would probably be good if I bought this thing, but I would not want to risk unnecessary stress on the chips considering how awesome this little system is.
While homebrew releases in any form are highly applaudable - I am still gobsmacked that a release was put out in this form - where the target buyers are unsure if the game is even safe to use on their system...
These aren't official Famicom games, no reason why they should be expected to run perfectly in original hardware. The year is 2016, new clones are being manufactured and sold to fans and casual gamers everywhere around the globe. I honestly suspect that aside from collectors, the casual gamers would be fine with just getting a cheap clone and then playing all of their games, maybe this one even.
Homebrew has always done stuff that wasn't necessarily compatible with original hardware, check out all the NES homebrews that run in emulators but not real machines.
Honestly not sure what the big deal is, and I am extremely excited about this, and hope to find someone who can help me preorder it.
Quote from: fcgamer on May 27, 2016, 08:03:39 am
These aren't official Famicom games, no reason why they should be expected to run perfectly in original hardware. The year is 2016, new clones are being manufactured and sold to fans and casual gamers everywhere around the globe. I honestly suspect that aside from collectors, the casual gamers would be fine with just getting a cheap clone and then playing all of their games, maybe this one even.
Homebrew has always done stuff that wasn't necessarily compatible with original hardware, check out all the NES homebrews that run in emulators but not real machines.
Honestly not sure what the big deal is, and I am extremely excited about this, and hope to find someone who can help me preorder it.
Casual gamers won't buy a Famicom game for $60, they'll just download the ROM (or buy it online).
I think you're quite alone in accepting
worse quality of these expensive releases compared to $5 pirate carts out of Shenzhen (which you are very fast to disapprove of and call cheap garbage in all other threads here).
Also using a clone won't stop the game from crashing if the 5 volts overheat the chips after playing for a while (as reported on amazon.jp for 8 bit music power).
Well, for me - there is a big contradiction in how this game is marketed. It's billed as a legitimate release (as close as possible) and clearly targeting the retro collector, which is not a casual gamer in that sense (they play Android / PC / 3DS, and are still then probably not a casual gamer as such). The guy must know his market pretty well, Project F did a superb job with Mr.Splash even if it was very limited and half DIY.
I would have thought, that it would at least be tested on official hardware, but to be an active risk in damaging that hardware? It's ludicrous. That's like bottled water that comes with a health warning. Madness.
So I would love to buy one, but not when they are put together like this. I can't support that approach. I love these releases, but not in this form, it doesn't take much to do it properly, as repro builders will attest.
Quote from: fcgamer on May 27, 2016, 08:03:39 am
These aren't official Famicom games, no reason why they should be expected to run perfectly in original hardware.
Of course they should be expected to run on original hardware. Anything else is utter nonsense. Clones have no standards to their build quality or capabilities, each one is different. Original hardware, despite the differences between original/AV/Titler, is the standard, all official games run on all of them. It makes no sense to release even an unofficial game that doesn't. If a NES homebrew physical cart was released that didn't run on original NES but did run on, say, Retron 5 for example, it would be panned out of the Internet.
To follow LET's lead, If the devs want to release a game for "Shitty Clone X" then they should drop any pretenses and mentions of the Famicom and just put "FOR SHITTY CLONE X" in big red letters on the box.
It's an unlicensed game, plain and simple. With that being the case, I see no problems with it being treated as such. The game is unlicensed, yet you guys want to raise the expectations so high for it, just because what, it was programmed by a fan and not a greedy corporation somewhere? Ridiculous. At the end of the day, the game is an unlicensed product, or as some people here would prefer to term it, a "pirate". ;D
Being from Europe, maybe you guys never heard of all the warnings from Nintendo back in the early 90s about the unlicensed games / products; Game Shark, Game Genie, unlicensed carts, etc. Nintendo always had campaigns that warned against buying these devices, due to potential damage being caused. Nothing new there either.
Quote from: fcgamer on May 27, 2016, 09:29:09 am
The game is unlicensed, yet you guys want to raise the expectations so high for it
Personally, I don't consider "will not fry my Famicom" to be a high expectation ;D
I'm basically doing a HVC-TLROM with additional holes right now :) I'll release the design files for free when they're done :) I just want to make sure everything works as expected, so I'll have to wait for a dump :/
Are there any supporting poles under the original pcb?
Quote from: fcgamer on May 27, 2016, 09:29:09 am
The game is unlicensed, yet you guys want to raise the expectations so high for it
We raise it to the expectation of cheap modern Chinese pirate carts (the ones you seem to hate so much).
The Nintendo campaigns were mostly to scare people from buying game copiers or imports and didn't have much to do with reality.
Who said it will work on all clones? As Ghegs said there's no standard to clones and the warning also clearly says that there may be both Famicoms and Famiclones that it won't work on.
What does it matter if it's a professionally made game, a garage project or whatever, selling a game that may blow up peoples equipment is just ridiculous if you hope people to buy anything more from you in the future. And it would be stupid if people didn't complain about something like that.
Everything else seems to be of good quality in this game, it's just that they choose the cartridge manufacturer poorly.
Quote from: fcgamer on May 27, 2016, 09:29:09 am
it was programmed by a fan and not a greedy corporation somewhere?
He's a professional game programmer from the Famicom era, and has worked in several famous gaming companies if I remember correctly.
Quote from: ImATrackMan on May 26, 2016, 11:16:06 pm
The issue is on the cartridge, not the ROM itself.
I read that there are ways to damage the PPU using software, but I guess that's not the case here.
Quote from: jensma on May 27, 2016, 10:11:11 am
I'm basically doing a HVC-TLROM with additional holes right now :) I'll release the design files for free when they're done :) I just want to make sure everything works as expected, so I'll have to wait for a dump :/
Are there any supporting poles under the original pcb?
There is one on the front shell and it won't conflict with the position of any chips, but there are three on the back. Two of them conflict with the position of the CHR-ROM, the third is a central support that should fit between both of the chips. The approx. positions of these supports are the two red dots and black line. They make contact with the "mapper" side of the CC board.
Other measurements are here.
I'll PM you the ROMs of the first version of the game as well as 8BMP since they're all highly likely to be the same config. The only issue that needs to be taken into account is game saves. v1 has no game saving, v2 might save high scores, though this is unlikely. The max ROM sizes for K/L are 512 and 256 for the PRG and CHR respectively and v1 has 256 for both.
It seems as though there was some truth to the Nintendo campaigns back in the day. About Camerica games:
The infamous switch on the back of the cart simply connects the negative supply to the cart edge. Toploaders will NOT be happy if it is turned on! This will cause the circuit to draw tons of current, which will most likely fry it if the console is left on too long. On my console, it causes the screen to go black with grey wavy lines, and the audio produces a loud buzz. Taken from:
http://kevtris.org/mappers/lockout/camerica.html
In fact, a lot of the companies would stun the lockout chip with voltages to bypass it:
http://kevtris.org/mappers/lockout/index.html
Um, yeah.
We don't even have this game yet, how can you guys be so sure the "frying issues" would occur with this one as well? Also, I don't think it really matters if the game was programmed by a programmer from back in the day, it is still a homebrew / unlicensed title ;) And to expect that an unlicensed title will run 100% properly on a licensed machine, in an age where original hardware is being used less and less, is a bit silly.
Quote from: mfm on May 27, 2016, 10:29:38 am
Quote from: fcgamer on May 27, 2016, 09:29:09 am
The game is unlicensed, yet you guys want to raise the expectations so high for it
We raise it to the expectation of cheap modern Chinese pirate carts (the ones you seem to hate so much).
The Nintendo campaigns were mostly to scare people from buying game copiers or imports and didn't have much to do with reality.
Quote from: fcgamer on May 27, 2016, 03:29:33 pm
It seems as though there was some truth to the Nintendo campaigns back in the day. About Camerica games:
The infamous switch on the back of the cart simply connects the negative supply to the cart edge. Toploaders will NOT be happy if it is turned on! This will cause the circuit to draw tons of current, which will most likely fry it if the console is left on too long. On my console, it causes the screen to go black with grey wavy lines, and the audio produces a loud buzz.
Taken from:
http://kevtris.org/mappers/lockout/camerica.html
In fact, a lot of the companies would stun the lockout chip with voltages to bypass it:
http://kevtris.org/mappers/lockout/index.html
Um, yeah.
We don't even have this game yet, how can you guys be so sure the "frying issues" would occur with this one as well? Also, I don't think it really matters if the game was programmed by a programmer from back in the day, it is still a homebrew / unlicensed title ;) And to expect that an unlicensed title will run 100% properly on a licensed machine, in an age where original hardware is being used less and less, is a bit silly.
Quote from: mfm on May 27, 2016, 10:29:38 am
Quote from: fcgamer on May 27, 2016, 09:29:09 am
The game is unlicensed, yet you guys want to raise the expectations so high for it
We raise it to the expectation of cheap modern Chinese pirate carts (the ones you seem to hate so much).
The Nintendo campaigns were mostly to scare people from buying game copiers or imports and didn't have much to do with reality.
The issue is not the programming of the ROM. The issue is the shit manufacturing of the cartridge which is why jensma and I (mostly jensma, I really appreciate it) are working to make TxROM boards that fit in the cartridge shells. 8bit music power and KKSNv1 run fine on powerpaks and everdrives because they are standard MMC3 NES roms. "Homebrew/unlicenced" doesn't mean bad quality or programming. Blade Buster, The Legend of Link, Super Bat Puncher, Alter Ego, and many others are cut from the same cloth. My TNS cartridges and slot expander are 100% totally unlicenced and occasionally require the Famicom to power multiple cartridges at a time. Software compatibility is 100% guaranteed, hardware compatibility is the gamble here.
I totally agree that homebrew / unlicensed doesn't necessarily mean bad quality / programming / whatever; I am the forum's champion of unlicensed games. I just feel a bit frustrated because I am tired of seeing this (and the previous release) trashed so bad, just because of people having unrealistic expectations. The original Famicom is over 30 years old, the hardware has "changed" over the years (the machines that are being made now don't contain the same hardware as the original machines. (And even within the original machines, there were tons of revisions and what not.)
So you might wish that the manufacturer of these carts had done something to cater towards original hardware, but that is sort of like asking A. Chudov to have programmed his games for original hardware, just something that is unlikely.
With that said, can anyone else me preorder this game?
Post Merge: May 27, 2016, 08:30:10 pm
On another note, Legend of Link is just a hack. ;)
Post Merge: May 27, 2016, 08:32:33 pm
And to the guy that mentioned Mr. Splash (I forget who mentioned it): IMO, that is one of the worst ways to release a homebrew game. Partially DIY (did you know that DIY in Taiwan = masturbation, heh) , but also so limited that no one could even get the thing. Such limited homebrew releases suck, imo. It is just a tease to collectors and gamers alike, and it doesn't matter if the quality is excellent or not, if most people can never even own the thing.
Quote from: fcgamer on May 27, 2016, 08:29:16 pm
I totally agree that homebrew / unlicensed doesn't necessarily mean bad quality / programming / whatever; I am the forum's champion of unlicensed games. I just feel a bit frustrated because I am tired of seeing this (and the previous release) trashed so bad, just because of people having unrealistic expectations. The original Famicom is over 30 years old, the hardware has "changed" over the years (the machines that are being made now don't contain the same hardware as the original machines. (And even within the original machines, there were tons of revisions and what not.)
So you might wish that the manufacturer of these carts had done something to cater towards original hardware, but that is sort of like asking A. Chudov to have programmed his games for original hardware, just something that is unlikely.
For NES Homebrew, the standards are pretty well established. You start program the game with the assistance of an accurate emulator, a 6502 compiler and appropriate graphics and sound tools. You test the game in a flash cart or an EPROM cart on at least one real Nintendo-manufactured system. Finally, you make some or obtain some quality boards and 5v flash chips and manufacture your game. If you don't follow a reasonable standard like this, you risk incompatibility and your work being lost and forgotten.
Your expectations are too low for a $60 product. The Nintendo-made hardware really didn't change much at its core during the 20 years in which it was in active production. Most people seem to prefer using Nintendo's original hardware to clone hardware, a trend that is fortunately increasing over time. Many modern clones have inaccurate sound (reversed duty cycles), jailbars in the video, mushy controllers and garbage build quality. Looking for a specific clone may be easy today, but impossible two years from now.
Quote from: fcgamer on May 27, 2016, 08:29:16 pmWith that said, can anyone else me preorder this game?
I preordered the Amazon limited edition using FromJapan as they were the only ones able to actually do it. Buyee/Tenso didn't allow me due to "certain restrictions".
I'm sure you'd be able to get the "standard" version from AmiAmi (also very good, I've used them many times)
http://www.amiami.com/top/detail/detail?scode=GAME-0016443&rank=ctgAmiAmi preorders closed
Sangatsu usagi has their own special edition that comes with three randomly chosen buttons:
http://www.march-rabbit.jp/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4224
with regards to this:
Quote from: fcgamer on May 27, 2016, 08:29:16 pmI just feel a bit frustrated because I am tired of seeing this (and the previous release) trashed so bad, just because of people having unrealistic expectations.
The first version of the game was trashed pretty hard, too and that was a ROM, book, and CD. There were a few carts made but people were (and still are) so
offended that he was selling the
limited 30th anniversary event-only carts that had real proper not-trash boards made for about $200 that they dismissed the entire release and never bought it. I must be one of less than 10 people in the states that owns a copy. It's also likely because it panders to me and people like me so hard, the retro gamers that are super into all that moe moe cutsey anime weeaboo shit, that people get turned off by it. The first version was and still is one of, if not my favorite of all NES/FC homebrews, but maybe I'm just easy to please.
If you were to talk to me about it personally, I'd probably try to sell you on this SO, SO HARD. I love the first version of the game. I've brought my Famicom to conventions and let people play it and THEY love the game. I want other people to love it as well (why the replacement boards are getting made), but the bad taste that 8BMP left in my and other people's mouths makes that really hard to do.
By the time someone buys the DX version :coin: gets it shipped out of Japan :coin: and then purchases a replacement quality board :coin:, you may have spent somewhere close to the $200 mark for the earlier version of the game. Your wallet will :'( by the end.
Depending on where you live, of course. In my case, the game's 50 bucks and with FromJapan's fees (minus EMS shipping that everyone should use by default) it'll come out to around 55-60. Jensma sells his Gimmick! repro boards for about $3 AND he will provide the board files, so depending on who wants to sell them, the boards could be $3 from Jensma, free if you ask me nicely, or if you want to make your own, the total cost won't come near $200
Quote from: fcgamer on May 27, 2016, 08:29:16 pmThe original Famicom is over 30 years old, the hardware has "changed" over the years (the machines that are being made now don't contain the same hardware as the original machines.
I know it was in quotes, but the Famicom hardware has not changed one bit since 1993. How clones are being manufactured now is completely irrelevant. They're unofficial, they're not by Nintendo, they are not Famicom. At best they are Famicom-compatible, if even that. To say that a clone system is a continuation of the Famicom hardware is like saying a self-built car, that has the Porsche logo slapped on it, is a real Porsche product and should be included when talking about Porsche.
Quote from: Great Hierophant on May 27, 2016, 09:33:20 pm
For NES Homebrew, the standards are pretty well established. You start program the game with the assistance of an accurate emulator, a 6502 compiler and appropriate graphics and sound tools. You test the game in a flash cart or an EPROM cart on at least one real Nintendo-manufactured system. Finally, you make some or obtain some quality boards and 5v flash chips and manufacture your game. If you don't follow a reasonable standard like this, you risk incompatibility and your work being lost and forgotten.
And because of these standards, I can take any NES homebrew physical cart (not that I own every single one, but I have seven of them), put a NES-to-FC adapter on it and play it on my AV Famicom. I'm pretty sure the developers did not plan for their game to be played this way, yet it works perfectly.
Meanwhile wanting a Famicom homebrew to work on a Famicom is expecting too much? C'mon now.
Quote from: fcgamer on May 27, 2016, 03:29:33 pm
We don't even have this game yet, how can you guys be so sure the "frying issues" would occur with this one as well?
Well the previous one evidentially fried some people's systems, and they still use the same warning as before, which sounds like they are probably still partly using the faulty boards. So how are anyone supposed to trust them now? I can't believe anyone defends garbage like this.
Quote from: P on May 28, 2016, 02:33:18 am
I can't believe anyone defends garbage like this.
Especially someone calling the normal Chinese copies (which DO work on all real Famicoms) cheap garbage...
By the reactions on the page, I guess we are sort of dating ourselves and our entries into the retro gaming scene, perhaps? The reason I say that:
http://www.nesworld.com/article.php?system=nes&data=neshomebrew
Talk about a standard for homebrew games, or not ;) To say there is a standard is silly. Even with the so-called homebrew publishers, it wasn't until recently that they (for the most part) stopped butchering old games and began using new pcbs. I even remember when they used old pcbs and tin boxes for their games, or if we want to go further back, remember Solar Wars and the DIY instructions Chris put out for it? Not really much of a standard, imo.
Ghegs, you say that
"how clones are being manufactured now is completely irrelevant. They're unofficial, they're not by Nintendo, they are not Famicom. At best they are Famicom-compatible, if even that." No offense, but I suggest you take a hard look at the words you typed, and then take a hard look at 8Bit Music Power, and Kira Kira. Can we not say about the two aforementioned games,
"They're unofficial, they're not by Nintendo, they are not Famicom. At best they are Famicom-compatible, if even that." If not, why not? They are just as much (or not) Famicom as the hardware clones of today. Neither are manufactured or endorsed by Nintendo, etc.
Finally you say the following:
"Meanwhile wanting a Famicom homebrew to work on a Famicom is expecting too much? C'mon now."
But to quote you earlier, you said the following: [b'They're unofficial, they're not by Nintendo, they are not Famicom. At best they are Famicom-compatible, if even that."[/b] Why do unofficial games get the pass (and then the criticism when they don't run on ALL real hardware versions) but clone machines get thrown down the toilet? ;) ;D :o 8) ??? It seems like a double-standard from what you, yourself said. Can't say that unofficial software gets a pass and then needs to be held at higher standards, now can we?
Post Merge: May 28, 2016, 07:04:35 am
Quote from: P on May 28, 2016, 02:33:18 am
Quote from: fcgamer on May 27, 2016, 03:29:33 pm
We don't even have this game yet, how can you guys be so sure the "frying issues" would occur with this one as well?
Well the previous one evidentially fried some people's systems, and they still use the same warning as before, which sounds like they are probably still partly using the faulty boards. So how are anyone supposed to trust them now? I can't believe anyone defends garbage like this.
Right, and as we pointed out earlier, Game Genie, Codemasters games, etc also had the risk of frying machines back in the day. You talk about defending garbage, I talk about being realistic.
Post Merge: May 28, 2016, 07:09:50 am
Quote from: mfm on May 28, 2016, 02:44:51 am
Quote from: P on May 28, 2016, 02:33:18 am
I can't believe anyone defends garbage like this.
Especially someone calling the normal Chinese copies (which DO work on all real Famicoms) cheap garbage...
Do you disagree and feel that the modern Aliexpress Chinese Famiclone crap is good? I guess it is good for those cheap-ass gamers that don't want to buy / collect the antique carts, just throw in a request to some guy and pay $7 to get a game cart shipped to your door. Then play pretend to your friends and relatives that you own an antique cart...
You ever see an early 90s pirate cart versus an Aliexpress one? Build quality is 100% different, one is high quality with chips, durable case, the other is globs and a case that is so brittle, even looking at it funny could break it. Besides, what is the fun of collecting some modern crap that one can get made at will, just by waving a $5 bill? That is why I call it cheap garbage, namely because it is.
And if we want to dig deeper, it seems to me that those 400 in 1 He Cards wouldn't even run on original hardware without modification, along with some other modern-made Aliexpress crap. Do you dare to disagree on that statement? So to go against your other post, no, they don't work in original hardware. ;D
Post Merge: May 28, 2016, 07:15:16 am
Can you show me a picture of your cart, please? And if you ever choose to sell it, would you please consider me first?
Some of my Japanese contacts had told me that it was illegal in Japan to repurpose Famicom carts for homebrews, and as such , why the first Kira Kira was so limited / so expensive. If there was really a new board designed, not just reuse of old parts, please show.
Quote from: ImATrackMan on May 27, 2016, 09:46:20 pm
Quote from: fcgamer on May 27, 2016, 08:29:16 pmWith that said, can anyone else me preorder this game?
I preordered the Amazon limited edition using FromJapan as they were the only ones able to actually do it. Buyee/Tenso didn't allow me due to "certain restrictions".
I'm sure you'd be able to get the "standard" version from AmiAmi (also very good, I've used them many times)
http://www.amiami.com/top/detail/detail?scode=GAME-0016443&rank=ctg
AmiAmi preorders closed
Sangatsu usagi has their own special edition that comes with three randomly chosen buttons:
http://www.march-rabbit.jp/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4224
with regards to this:
Quote from: fcgamer on May 27, 2016, 08:29:16 pmI just feel a bit frustrated because I am tired of seeing this (and the previous release) trashed so bad, just because of people having unrealistic expectations.
The first version of the game was trashed pretty hard, too and that was a ROM, book, and CD. There were a few carts made but people were (and still are) so offended that he was selling the limited 30th anniversary event-only carts that had real proper not-trash boards made for about $200 that they dismissed the entire release and never bought it. I must be one of less than 10 people in the states that owns a copy. It's also likely because it panders to me and people like me so hard, the retro gamers that are super into all that moe moe cutsey anime weeaboo shit, that people get turned off by it. The first version was and still is one of, if not my favorite of all NES/FC homebrews, but maybe I'm just easy to please.
If you were to talk to me about it personally, I'd probably try to sell you on this SO, SO HARD. I love the first version of the game. I've brought my Famicom to conventions and let people play it and THEY love the game. I want other people to love it as well (why the replacement boards are getting made), but the bad taste that 8BMP left in my and other people's mouths makes that really hard to do.
Homebrew for the Famicom that doesn't work on the original consoles (or risks damaging them) is stupid, and defending it in any way is also stupid.
I have no idea why you're dragging this discussion out, are you bored or something?
I'll whip out the design tomorrow evening, I'm at my parents right now :)
You're mixing apples with oranges. I was making a point how the Famicom hardware hasn't changed since 1993, so the sensible course for any homebrew developer would be to develop the game for the original hardware, not for a clone system that was made 20 years afterwards. Make it 100% compatible with the original hardware and the game has a better chance of working with all the clones out there, rather than making it 100% compatible with a specific clone model and hoping all the other systems, including the original, can run it at all.
Please read the rest of the post as well.
Quote from: GhegsI can take any NES homebrew physical cart (not that I own every single one, but I have seven of them), put a NES-to-FC adapter on it and play it on my AV Famicom. I'm pretty sure the developers did not plan for their game to be played this way, yet it works perfectly.
Battle Kid 2 is just as much an unofficial, unlicensed release. Yet it runs perfectly on AV Famicom, despite that feature probably not being high (or even present) in the developer's plans. THIS is the standard, from a cart-building technological standpoint, that needs to be held for physical homebrew releases and their developers. There is no double-standard here. Battle Kid 2 gets a pass simply because it works. Like I said earlier:
Quote from: GhegsIf a NES homebrew physical cart was released that didn't run on original NES but did run on, say, Retron 5 for example, it would be panned out of the Internet.
Shitty things are shitty. Clone machines never got out of the toilet in the first place, and 8BMP and Kira Kira belong there right with them. Your love for clones has clouded your mind and suddenly defending a cartridge that might not run and potentially even damages original systems makes sense to you.
Actually, I don't play my games on a clone. When I want to game, I only use official hardware (Twin Famicom) and most of the clones that I have / collect are the early ones, basically 1:1 with the original hardware. Modern clones and stuff like that don't interest me at all.
My mind isn't clouded, but I feel as some of the folks here (you included) are being unrealistic and unreasonable with the whole thing. Here is why.
As I had mentioned earlier, with NES homebrew, there are / were dozens if not hundreds of games that were developed, yet did not actually run on real hardware. Please refer to the NES World link. Some were even developed by NES homebrew pioneers. Now we have come a long way since that, for sure, but it doesn't change the fact that this had been an issue at one point.
Regarding damaging machines (I think someone else mentioned that yet again), please refer back to the unlicensed games on the NES. Some of them used risky measures for defeating the lockout chip, and could damage the machine. This release is also unlicensed, nothing new here. An unlicensed game could damage the hardware, should I be surprised? Not really, I guess.
And to go back to the point that you failed to reply to: You yourself said that "how clones are being manufactured now is completely irrelevant. They're unofficial, they're not by Nintendo, they are not Famicom. At best they are Famicom-compatible, if even that" But don't those same words apply equally as much to an unofficial game? They should, as they follow all the same points.
Quote from: Ghegs on May 28, 2016, 07:51:17 am
You're mixing apples with oranges. I was making a point how the Famicom hardware hasn't changed since 1993, so the sensible course for any homebrew developer would be to develop the game for the original hardware, not for a clone system that was made 20 years afterwards. Make it 100% compatible with the original hardware and the game has a better chance of working with all the clones out there, rather than making it 100% compatible with a specific clone model and hoping all the other systems, including the original, can run it at all.
Please read the rest of the post as well.
Quote from: GhegsI can take any NES homebrew physical cart (not that I own every single one, but I have seven of them), put a NES-to-FC adapter on it and play it on my AV Famicom. I'm pretty sure the developers did not plan for their game to be played this way, yet it works perfectly.
Battle Kid 2 is just as much an unofficial, unlicensed release. Yet it runs perfectly on AV Famicom, despite that feature probably not being high (or even present) in the developer's plans. THIS is the standard, from a cart-building technological standpoint, that needs to be held for physical homebrew releases and their developers. There is no double-standard here. Battle Kid 2 gets a pass because it works. Like I said earlier:
Quote from: GhegsIf a NES homebrew physical cart was released that didn't run on original NES but did run on, say, Retron 5 for example, it would be panned out of the Internet.
Shitty things are shitty. Clone machines never got out of the toilet in the first place, and 8BMP and Kira Kira belong there right with them. Your love for clones has clouded your mind and suddenly defending a cartridge that might not run and potentially even damages original systems makes sense to you.
Quote from: fcgamer on May 28, 2016, 08:01:16 amAs I had mentioned earlier, with NES homebrew, there are / were dozens if not hundreds of games that were developed, yet did not actually run on real hardware.
Not even 10% of games in that list have an actual physical release from the devs themselves, which is the whole point here. It's irrelevant that a game doesn't run on real hardware, IF the developer never releases a physical cart of it. 8BMP/Kira Kira devs did physically release a game that doesn't run on real hardware, so they deserve all the flak that's coming to them.
Quote from: fcgamer on May 28, 2016, 08:01:16 amAnd to go back to the point that you failed to reply to: You yourself said that "how clones are being manufactured now is completely irrelevant. They're unofficial, they're not by Nintendo, they are not Famicom. At best they are Famicom-compatible, if even that" But don't those same words apply equally as much to an unofficial game? They should, as they follow all the same points.
I did respond to it, but I'll spell it out for you again. Clones aka. system hardware that attempts to replicate the original but fails (to quote Great Hierophant: "inaccurate sound (reversed duty cycles), jailbars in the video, mushy controllers and garbage build quality") is shitty. Game software, or in this case game hardware since the physical cart is to blame, that doesn't work or destroys the console is shitty. Neither get a pass. Not because they're unlicensed - because they're shitty.
Quote from: GhegsBattle Kid 2 is just as much an unofficial, unlicensed release...Battle Kid 2 gets a pass because it works.
I have no quarrel with the software, its just the hardware on which it comes with which I take issue. Standards improve and developers have to evolve with it. What corner-cutting passed for acceptable in 1998, 2002 or 2006 is no longer acceptable in 2016. What you are buying when you are buying Kira Kira is not an improvement, although I am glad that a proper solution won't require someone to shell out $200. But for $50-60, the customer should not have to go through those hoops to ensure the cart will run on his Famicom.
You miss my point though, in your response. You say that clone hardware is irrelevant and unrelated to Nintendo, since it is unofficial; yet then you expect unofficial software (which is equally unrelated to Nintendo) to run on Famicom. That is my problem with your argument. Kira is as unrelated to Nintendo as Shitty Clone X. Because it will run in some Famicom machines, it is advertised as such, but it is an unofficial product after all.
Quote from: Ghegs on May 28, 2016, 08:48:14 am
Quote from: fcgamer on May 28, 2016, 08:01:16 amAs I had mentioned earlier, with NES homebrew, there are / were dozens if not hundreds of games that were developed, yet did not actually run on real hardware.
Not even 10% of games in that list have an actual physical release from the devs themselves, which is the whole point here. It's irrelevant that a game doesn't run on real hardware, IF the developer never releases a physical cart of it. 8BMP/Kira Kira devs did physically release a game that doesn't run on real hardware, so they deserve all the flak that's coming to them.
Quote from: fcgamer on May 28, 2016, 08:01:16 amAnd to go back to the point that you failed to reply to: You yourself said that "how clones are being manufactured now is completely irrelevant. They're unofficial, they're not by Nintendo, they are not Famicom. At best they are Famicom-compatible, if even that" But don't those same words apply equally as much to an unofficial game? They should, as they follow all the same points.
I did respond to it, but I'll spell it out for you again. Clones aka. system hardware that attempts to replicate the original but fails (to quote Great Hierophant: "inaccurate sound (reversed duty cycles), jailbars in the video, mushy controllers and garbage build quality") is shitty. Game software, or in this case game hardware since the physical cart is to blame, that doesn't work or destroys the console is shitty. Neither get a pass. Not because they're unlicensed - because they're shitty.
Quote from: GhegsBattle Kid 2 is just as much an unofficial, unlicensed release...Battle Kid 2 gets a pass because it works.
Quote from: fcgamer on May 28, 2016, 07:02:33 am
Do you disagree and feel that the modern Aliexpress Chinese Famiclone crap is good? I guess it is good for those cheap-ass gamers that don't want to buy / collect the antique carts, just throw in a request to some guy and pay $7 to get a game cart shipped to your door. Then play pretend to your friends and relatives that you own an antique cart...
You ever see an early 90s pirate cart versus an Aliexpress one? Build quality is 100% different, one is high quality with chips, durable case, the other is globs and a case that is so brittle, even looking at it funny could break it. Besides, what is the fun of collecting some modern crap that one can get made at will, just by waving a $5 bill? That is why I call it cheap garbage, namely because it is.
And if we want to dig deeper, it seems to me that those 400 in 1 He Cards wouldn't even run on original hardware without modification, along with some other modern-made Aliexpress crap. Do you dare to disagree on that statement? So to go against your other post, no, they don't work in original hardware. ;D
The point that I'm making and that you're avoiding is that if you take the $7 aliexpress cart and compare it to the $60 Kira Kira cart then the $7 is a higher quality product that works properly on real Famicom machines!
The 400in1 you're talking about is one rare exception that i've personally never seen sold anywhere. I bought the current 400in1 cart + the 198in1 both for like $7 shipped and they work fine on a real AV Famicom. One exception is completely irrelevant among thousands upon thousands of different carts that DO work on real Famicoms.
There's no antique carts just older bootlegs with different dodgy looking labels. Very few people would think they are anything to brag about or hold any particular value.
Disagree and disagree.
There are tons of carts that don't play in real hardware, and they are all modern-made. The 400 in 1 cart, and I've had other multicarts of similar type. One that comes to mind is a 120 in 1 Waixing multicart, IIRC.
And to compare quality, based on what? The modern pirates, the build quality is not so good at all. Could easily be snapped in two by bare hands, etc. Do you disagree about this?
About the old bootlegs, I beg to differ, and so would a lot of people. I've argued about this time and time again. Sadly the "purists" that only collect official games and then homebrews that they justify as being in a different category than unlicensed don't seem to understand or get this point though. Single cart > multi cart, chips > globs, old bootlegs > modern bootlegs. If you dare to venture into the B/S/T sections and look around, folks from South America and Eastern Europe love collecting the
old bootleg carts. Why? Because that is what was released in their countries back in the day, Dendy and Pegasus, etc. For them, that
is the "official" stuff. They don't want the Japanese stuff, nor do they want the modern crap.
As I said before, what is the point of collecting something if you can just pay someone to make it in an instant, at will? What is the point?
Quote from: mfm on May 28, 2016, 09:42:20 am
Quote from: fcgamer on May 28, 2016, 07:02:33 am
Do you disagree and feel that the modern Aliexpress Chinese Famiclone crap is good? I guess it is good for those cheap-ass gamers that don't want to buy / collect the antique carts, just throw in a request to some guy and pay $7 to get a game cart shipped to your door. Then play pretend to your friends and relatives that you own an antique cart...
You ever see an early 90s pirate cart versus an Aliexpress one? Build quality is 100% different, one is high quality with chips, durable case, the other is globs and a case that is so brittle, even looking at it funny could break it. Besides, what is the fun of collecting some modern crap that one can get made at will, just by waving a $5 bill? That is why I call it cheap garbage, namely because it is.
And if we want to dig deeper, it seems to me that those 400 in 1 He Cards wouldn't even run on original hardware without modification, along with some other modern-made Aliexpress crap. Do you dare to disagree on that statement? So to go against your other post, no, they don't work in original hardware. ;D
The point that I'm making and that you're avoiding is that if you take the $7 aliexpress cart and compare it to the $60 Kira Kira cart then the $7 is a higher quality product that works properly on real Famicom machines!
The 400in1 you're talking about is one rare exception that i've personally never seen sold anywhere. I bought the current 400in1 cart + the 198in1 both for like $7 shipped and they work fine on a real AV Famicom. One exception is completely irrelevant among thousands upon thousands of different carts that DO work on real Famicoms.
There's no antique carts just older bootlegs with different dodgy looking labels. Very few people would think they are anything to brag about or hold any particular value.
Quote from: fcgamer on May 28, 2016, 09:19:41 amYou miss my point though, in your response. You say that clone hardware is irrelevant and unrelated to Nintendo, since it is unofficial; yet then you expect unofficial software (which is equally unrelated to Nintendo) to run on Famicom. That is my problem with your argument. Kira is as unrelated to Nintendo as Shitty Clone X. Because it will run in some Famicom machines, it is advertised as such, but it is an unofficial product after all.
To clarify, I said clones are not related to Famicom in response to your argument that the hardware has "changed" over the years, that the clones are a valid continuation of the Famicom hardware. That was the point of that sentence.
And yes, I do expect unofficial Famicom software to run on a Famicom. Pretty much everybody does, and should. To recap what I've said earlier:
If somebody released a physical NES homebrew (which is unofficial, unlicensed, etc) that didn't run on a NES but did run on Retron 5, that release would be panned. NES homebrew developers make sure their game is playable on a real NES, it's not only a point of pride, but makes business sense. NES fans expect it, and there are much more original NES systems still being played than there are Retron 5's.
So when a FC homebrew developer releases a game that might not work on a real Famicom, could even potentially damage it...that's bad. That's really, really bad. There's no getting around this. There is no reason at all why the Kira devs, or any FC homebrew developer, couldn't make sure their game is playable on a real Famicom. They are just being cheap, lazy, or really, REALLY ignorant.
Quote from: fcgamer on May 28, 2016, 07:02:33 am
Quote from: P on May 28, 2016, 02:33:18 am
Quote from: fcgamer on May 27, 2016, 03:29:33 pm
We don't even have this game yet, how can you guys be so sure the "frying issues" would occur with this one as well?
Well the previous one evidentially fried some people's systems, and they still use the same warning as before, which sounds like they are probably still partly using the faulty boards. So how are anyone supposed to trust them now? I can't believe anyone defends garbage like this.
Right, and as we pointed out earlier, Game Genie, Codemasters games, etc also had the risk of frying machines back in the day. You talk about defending garbage, I talk about being realistic.
Right, those stun-CICs are potentially dangerous and I'd avoid them if I still had a NES.
If I understand it correctly, fcgamer's point is that since this is a game released long after the Famicom ceased production, it's unrealistic to expect more from it, and we just have to swallow that it may explode in our faces after we just paid $60 for it. Is that right?
Most of the other arguments are beside the point.
And most of us don't agree to that. No way that I'm risking my Famicom. I think this discussion has reached its conclusion.
My point is, the game is unlicensed. Unlicensed games have always had issues regarding quality, regarding safety to the machine, etc. It isn't a new thing. Unlicensed games have always had issues with compatibility too.
Everyone else has expectations that the game should have 100% compatibility, should be 100% safe, should be of good quality, etc. But the game isn't an official Nintendo product. Considering what I said in paragraph one, it fits the realm okay of its companions, and as such, I take no issue. But I do take issue to people expecting it to be something that it is not. It is not an official game, so it shouldn't be treated as such, and the expectations shouldn't be held at that level either.
Quote from: P on May 28, 2016, 10:24:32 am
Quote from: fcgamer on May 28, 2016, 07:02:33 am
Quote from: P on May 28, 2016, 02:33:18 am
Quote from: fcgamer on May 27, 2016, 03:29:33 pm
We don't even have this game yet, how can you guys be so sure the "frying issues" would occur with this one as well?
Well the previous one evidentially fried some people's systems, and they still use the same warning as before, which sounds like they are probably still partly using the faulty boards. So how are anyone supposed to trust them now? I can't believe anyone defends garbage like this.
Right, and as we pointed out earlier, Game Genie, Codemasters games, etc also had the risk of frying machines back in the day. You talk about defending garbage, I talk about being realistic.
Right, those stun-CICs are potentially dangerous and I'd avoid them if I still had a NES.
If I understand it correctly, fcgamer's point is that since this is a game released long after the Famicom ceased production, it's unrealistic to expect more from it, and we just have to swallow that it may explode in our faces after we just paid $60 for it. Is that right?
Most of the other arguments are beside the point.
And most of us don't agree to that. No way that I'm risking my Famicom. I think this discussion has reached its conclusion.
I see so that's why you drag in Codemasters and Waixing, although I don't think it matters if it's a new problem or not. An expensive product that works poorly should still be complained at. I don't give a damn if it's licensed or not, Nintendo's licensing for Famicom is not even in use anymore.
Quote from: P on May 28, 2016, 10:54:28 am
I see so that's why you drag in Codemasters and Waixing, although I don't think it matters if it's a new problem or not. An expensive product that works poorly should still be complained at. I don't give a damn if it's licensed or not, Nintendo's licensing for Famicom is not even in use anymore.
Those unlicensed games were also expensive back in the day, Action 52 is the classic example.
I just think this product and the one before it are taking too much heat, all facts considered.
So what? They were garbage deals too.
Quote from: fcgamer on May 28, 2016, 07:02:33 amSome of my Japanese contacts had told me that it was illegal in Japan to repurpose Famicom carts for homebrews, and as such , why the first Kira Kira was so limited / so expensive. If there was really a new board designed, not just reuse of old parts, please show.
Here you go, buddy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcHmZKbgFYU
Awesome, thanks mate! I dream of getting that version some day.
Quote from: fcgamer on May 28, 2016, 10:57:46 amI just think this product and the one before it are taking too much heat, all facts considered.
I agree with this more than most things in the thread.
Quote from: jensma on May 28, 2016, 07:47:34 am
I'll whip out the design tomorrow evening, I'm at my parents right now :)
You can't possibly know enough how grateful I am to you for going with my idea and making designing these boards.
Quote from: ImATrackMan on May 28, 2016, 12:18:45 pm
You can't possibly know enough how grateful I am to you for going with my idea and making designing these boards.
Stupid question: would an MMC3 chip need to be harvested from another cart to make these?
Quote from: UglyJoe on May 28, 2016, 02:46:07 pmQuote from: ImATrackMan on May 28, 2016, 12:18:45 pmYou can't possibly know enough how grateful I am to you for going with my idea and making designing these boards.
Stupid question: would an MMC3 chip need to be harvested from another cart to make these?
That's no stupid question at all! There is a replacement for the MMC3 out there, namely the AX5202P. Unfortunately that chip misses at least one connection, so it's not 100% compatible. So yes, you most probably have to get a genuine MMC3.
If desired I can switch the design to the replacement chip, it's just two clicks in the layout software.
Quote from: jensma on May 28, 2016, 03:06:49 pm
That's no stupid question at all! There is a replacement for the MMC3 out there, namely the AX5202P. Unfortunately that chip misses at least one connection, so it's not 100% compatible. So yes, you most probably have to get a genuine MMC3.
If desired I can switch the design to the replacement chip, it's just two clicks in the layout software.
The issues with the AX5202s are that most, if not all, good chips were used in carts, so all existing ones are defective in SOME way (especially in the IRQ area), and that there are two alternate pinouts.
Quote from: ImATrackMan on May 28, 2016, 09:46:53 pm
Quote from: jensma on May 28, 2016, 03:06:49 pm
That's no stupid question at all! There is a replacement for the MMC3 out there, namely the AX5202P. Unfortunately that chip misses at least one connection, so it's not 100% compatible. So yes, you most probably have to get a genuine MMC3.
If desired I can switch the design to the replacement chip, it's just two clicks in the layout software.
The issues with the AX5202s are that most, if not all, good chips were used in carts, so all existing ones are defective in SOME way (especially in the IRQ area), and that there are two alternate pinouts.
Yeah, I heard that. Bummer. Next step would be implementing a MMC3 with a cpld. That'll take some time tough (maybe a project for the summer holidays ;D)
Post Merge: May 29, 2016, 05:40:34 am
edit: The pcb is almost done. Waiting for ImATrackMan for confirming the measurements.
I don't see any reasons why they won't work, but I really really hope they do. I don't know how many people will want one, but if you do or know anyone who does, do not hesitate to speak up. In the event that KKSN:DX needs WRAM, I'll try to add it on so jensma doesn't have to do all of the work.
The replacement board as currently designed would require a donor MMC3 chip. They are not hard to come by, but would you be able to desolder the chip if someone sent you a donor NES PCB?
I don't see why not. A whole donor PCB is probably the best base since it also includes the necessary capacitors.
UPDATE:
(update)
Quote from: ImATrackMan on May 29, 2016, 08:43:39 pm
I don't see why not. A whole donor PCB is probably the best base since it also includes the necessary capacitors.
UPDATE:
(update)
That picture is worth a thousand words. If it weren't for the plastic standoffs, you could just use a Famicom MMC3 donor board and do a ROM swap.
Quote from: Great Hierophant on May 31, 2016, 08:04:33 am
Quote from: ImATrackMan on May 29, 2016, 08:43:39 pm
I don't see why not. A whole donor PCB is probably the best base since it also includes the necessary capacitors.
UPDATE:
(update)
That picture is worth a thousand words. If it weren't for the plastic standoffs, you could just use a Famicom MMC3 donor board and do a ROM swap.
Normally I'm not big on repros because of the ethics of destroying a cartridge, but in this instance the end result is the same (this is a discussion for many other threads, not this one).
If Columbus had used a replication of the Nintendo mounting scheme, you'd need an MMC3 donor board to do the ROM swap. In this case though, you still need to use an MMC3 donor for the mapper and caps. This is why I don't have any issues with it (and also you can use any garbage MMC3 game instead of looking specifically for garbage TLROM games thereby limiting the damage slightly).
So YES. Jensma's gonna send me the files soon and then it's off to fabbing. Production confirmed, testing and successful recreation is TBA.
Quote from: ImATrackMan on May 31, 2016, 12:59:52 pm
So YES. Jensma's gonna send me the files soon and then it's off to fabbing.
Done ;D
Alrighty, I've put the order in with PCBway, should take about a week for them to get here (Lead time 4-5 days, shipping 2. 2 DAYS FROM CHINA!).
One slightly annoying thing about PCBway is that they edit the silkscreen layer with the order number, so the boards'll have "W17542ASW3" printed on them in tiny text. If anyone cares, here's what they got (CHR position changed slightly from the images).
Blue soldermask, nice choice :)
Your service seems to be pretty fast, my waiting time is around 35 days for pcbs :'(
I've also gotten the hardest part of the process taken care of, the MMC3 removal. I used a method that I think is pretty creative. take a piece of enameled wire, solder one end to a nearby component, run it under the legs of the IC and give a controlled, firm tug (using needlenose pliers or similar) while running the iron along the pins. The wire will separate the pins from the board, and the enamel coating keeps it from being soldered to the pins or the pads.
UPDATE:
Fabbing going smoothly, constant step-by-step updates. Production took a couple of days to start unlike my first time using them, but you can see that they just blaze through it.
Boards are completely finished, already shipped, already in the US, and they SHOULD be here by Wednesday afternoon.
I ordered some EEPROMS a couple days back, but the seller hasn't shipped them yet, so actually testing them will have to wait for a little bit. Anyway, if you want a board, don't hesitate to ask. I'll be keeping a few for myself and a friend, so in the event I get no extras, 16 are available.
THIS IS HAPPENING!
EDIT: And two are gone! At least 14 are available.
Hey Track,
what are you charging per board? Can you PM me some info?
Alright, so they got here and I did some fitment testing since I STILL don't have the EEPROMs. There's one minor issue, and one issue that may be more serious than I'd like it to be.
The hole fit is quite loose, but the shell holds the board in place without much play, and it doesn't really feel any more loose than a "real" cartridge, so I wouldn't really say it's a big deal.
(http://my.mixtape.moe/oejpfw.jpg)
(http://my.mixtape.moe/dvrsjm.jpg)
The REAL issue is the length of the cart connectors. I blame CC and myself for this mistake; CC for making this design decision, and me for trusting them. The length of the connector is actually slightly longer than the one on many official boards, but the issue is this: the placement of the holes pulls it up by a FULL 1mm. The CC board is manufactured in such a way that the pin reaches all the way to the bottom of the connector, so this isn't a problem, but our boards barely make contact with the FC's connector and probably won't reach clones that have the contact points further down. Hopefully I haven't annoyed jensma enough that he's not willing to extend the connector a bit. :-[
I also blame myself for ordering 20...
Alright, these should be the final boards! Longer connector, comfortable contact with all pins, proper hole size, everything else unmodified so the chip spacing is the same and the fit is perfect. Two supports need to be removed from the rear shell, but that's no real issue. Does $4+shipping sound good? Anyone else want one?
EDIT: Second two images are new.
Final results are in, the boards are a total success and work completely fine.
If you want one, PM your address, a frequently-checked email, and a form of proof you own the cart so I can send you the split ROM. At last count, there are 8 taken with 13 available (one extra).