Famicom World

Family Computer => Technical & Repair Assistance => Topic started by: Hamburglar on September 29, 2011, 09:20:57 pm

Title: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.
Post by: Hamburglar on September 29, 2011, 09:20:57 pm
I just realized that Super Mario Bros 2 and Super Mario USA do not respond to my Joycard Sansui connected through the expansion port on my original Famicom and the AV famicom.
However Doki Doki Panic does. I guess it makes sense since SMB2 and SMUSA were probably not supposed to be released in Japan.

Is there a list of other games that are not compatible to pads connected through the expansion port?
Title: Re: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion por
Post by: nintendodork on October 03, 2011, 09:12:36 am
When you say "SMB2," do you mean the NES cartridge of Super Mario Bros. 2 (USA)? As far as I know, I don't think any NES game being played on a Famicom will work with a controller in the expansion port.
Title: Re: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.
Post by: Hamburglar on October 03, 2011, 11:03:10 pm
Yes, I meant NES Super Mario 2. Pretty much every US NES game in my collection connected through a converter to my AV and regular Famicom work with my Joycard Sansui.
The only one that does not work is US NES Super Mario 2. and Famicom Super Mario USA, Doki Doki FDS works fine.
Title: Re: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.
Post by: jpx72 on October 04, 2011, 03:09:16 am
That's strange, it should work, but maybe the game has something to prevent using front exp connector...(to prevent using turbo buttons?)
This find can be interesting even at nesdev forums ;)
Title: Re: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.
Post by: cmv2 on October 08, 2011, 06:09:07 am
Quote from: Hamburglar on September 29, 2011, 09:20:57 pm
I just realized that Super Mario Bros 2 and Super Mario USA do not respond to my Joycard Sansui connected through the expansion port on my original Famicom and the AV famicom.
However Doki Doki Panic does. I guess it makes sense since SMB2 and SMUSA were probably not supposed to be released in Japan.

Is there a list of other games that are not compatible to pads connected through the expansion port?



some times the controller on the  expansion port, work for player 2 no for player 1
Title: Re: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.
Post by: Hamburglar on October 09, 2011, 12:06:15 am
Quote from: cmv2 on October 08, 2011, 06:09:07 am
Quote from: Hamburglar on September 29, 2011, 09:20:57 pm
I just realized that Super Mario Bros 2 and Super Mario USA do not respond to my Joycard Sansui connected through the expansion port on my original Famicom and the AV famicom.
However Doki Doki Panic does. I guess it makes sense since SMB2 and SMUSA were probably not supposed to be released in Japan.

Is there a list of other games that are not compatible to pads connected through the expansion port?



some times the controller on the  expansion port, work for player 2 no for player 1


What games? The pad would have to be wired for player 2 (I've connected 2 NES pads to the EXP port with an adapter I made)  I know some games will see pads connected to the EXP port as P3 and P4.
Title: Re: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.
Post by: Xious on October 27, 2011, 07:18:06 pm
Player-I & Player-II controls via the EXP port work on a different register than the built-in joycards. If the game does not read these registers, then it won't respond to input from them...

This is why I want original controllers for my C1, as some games won't simply run with an EXP controller. I recall running into a few that will work from an EXP controller, but require you to press 'Start' on the built-in controller. Sorry, I never made a list of these games.  :bomb:
Title: Re: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.
Post by: P on October 29, 2011, 03:05:46 am
So if I connect NES controllers through the EXP port (with a homemade adapter) they will just be seen as Controller I EXP and Controller II EXP? I can't use it for NES games that requires you to press start on Controller II (which of course the original Famicom doesn't have)?

Also as 4 player NES games requires a Fourscore or NES Satelite, you can't connect these peripherals through the EXP port?
Title: Re: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.
Post by: Xious on October 29, 2011, 09:08:23 am
This again, depends greatly on the game. If the game is reading the EXP registers, it should detect the button presses, but if it was programmed in a way that it does not read them, then they won't work. The only way to find out is to try EXP controllers with every game.

Yawn... I feel alseep.

The FC EXP port has a lot of $4017 registers available, but only a few $4016 registers. This document (http://disch.arc-nova.org/nes_input.txt) may be helpful.  

Available connections, signals, registers & associated data bits are as follows (from my NESpander documentation, based on Kevin Horton's notes and NESDev Wiki articles):

FC DA-15                                           NES 48-Pin DSub EXP

1 - Ground                                           2 - Ground
2 - Sound Output                                 21 - Audio Out
3 - IRQ                                                  14 - /IRQ
4 - Port #1 (D4) 4017R.4                    18 - Joypad #2 (D4)
5 - Port #1 (D3) 4017R.3                    16 - Joypad #2 (D3)
6 - Port #1 (D2) 4017R.2                    15 - Joypad #2 (D2)
7 - Port #1 (D1) 4017R.1                    20 - Joypad #2 (D1)
8 - Port #1 (D0) 4017R.0                    19 - Joypad #2 (D0)
9 - Port #1 CLK 4017R.E                   11 - /OE Joypad #2
10 - Out2 4016WR.2                           45 - Out2
11 - Out1 4016WR.1                           44 - Out1
12 - Out0 4016WR.0                           43 - Out0
13 - Port #0 (D1) 4016R.1                  12 - Joypad #1 D1
14 - Port #0 CLK        4016R.E          37 - /OE Joypad #1
15 - +5VDC                                        1 - +5VDC (Out)

Note the lack of $4016.D0 on the Famicom port.

As Controller-II is normally read via $4017, I think you will be fine, for you have reads at D0-D4, plus standard /OE (strobe). I'm not sure if it's purely the lack of D0 causes problems with Player-I controller on some games, or if it is a bus / sharing conflict. D0 is normally used for Controller-I data, so I presume this is (at least) part of the problem, but again, you shouldn't have problems with Controller-II.

From what I've read, this design seems to be intentional; to prevent read conflicts with the built-in controllers. :bomb:
Title: Re: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.
Post by: punkpolitical on October 29, 2011, 01:24:06 pm
Wiring the FourScore for player one and two works just fine.

http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=4906.msg79268#msg79268 (http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=4906.msg79268#msg79268)
Title: Re: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.
Post by: P on October 30, 2011, 03:29:28 am
Is that mod to get 3- or 4-player Famicom games to work with the fourscore? What about NES games? As I understand it they already work if you just make a simple adapter with extension cables and connect the Fourscore without modifying it.

That way you can play 4-player NES games with the fourscore and adapter, and play 3- and 4-player Famicom games by connecting third party Famicom controllers through the EXP port.
Is this correct?
Title: Re: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.
Post by: Xious on October 30, 2011, 10:05:32 am
@ punkpolitical That wouldn't solve the problem discussed in this thread though: Games that don't work with EXP controllers won't work with a multi-tap either. Again, this primarily causes problems with Player-I controllers via the EXP port, but P-II controllers should not have any problems if wired to an EXP connector, at least in regard to games that require 'Start'-button presses on P-II.

@P Absolutely correct: The FourScore conversion, as illustrated in the linked thread, will permit the use of Multi-Tap Famicom games--but not 4-player NES games--on the Famicom. It is possible to modify the unit for the latter in place of FC multi-player titles, which requires building a cable converter; this is all discussed in detail somewhere on the forum.

Player-III through a theoretical Player-V are possible via a multi-tap device; I don't recall if any 5-player titles were released for the system, although I recall 5P-games for the SFC. :bomb:
Title: Re: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.
Post by: P on October 30, 2011, 12:31:47 pm
Thanks allot Xious! I'm trying to figure out if it is possible to play all games and accessories for Famicom and NES on a Famicom.

The only games I know that requires you to press start on controller II is games that were made in USA or Europe. For example the four player game R.C. Pro-Am II requires each player to join by pressing start, meaning you can't even play two player on the original Famicom with just the built in controllers. Would NES games detect these controllers in the EXP port on a Famicom?

And about the Fourscore just to make things clear. If you don't modify the fourscore at all you can only play 3/4-player NES games with it on a Famicom if you wire it to the EXP port. Is this correct? Sorry for bothering so much.

Player-V? That's intresting. Yes there are Bomberman games for SFC that supports 5 player but I never heard of such for Famicom... Maybe something for homebrew developers.
Title: Re: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.
Post by: Xious on October 30, 2011, 11:30:51 pm
Five-player is easily possible on the hardware, even if it had never been done; I suppose you could go as high as seven-player without additional hardware, using a standard 8-button controller. (Games that need fewer buttons can also split controllers; if only four buttons are in use, you can double the number of devices with the same inputs by mapping the additional buttons to a second device.)

In theory, you could further increase the range by multiplexing the signals and adding signatures, such as those used on the FourScore, but I expect that things would begin to break down at that point, with the system strobing and reading from that many devices, plus waiting for device signature bits. I do think the notion of a 12-player game is fantastic, but ultimately neither realistic, nor conducive to the safe operation of the hardware.

Again, this is mostly in theory. I think that some Mah'Jong controllers may have made use of this type of function, or its reverse, but I never studied them to deduce how they work. I recall seeing a set of 'Game Show Buzzer' style controllers at one point or another, and I think these were wired in pairs for the system, or wired in groups of four or five or something.

Most multi-player games are esoteric titles that permit single-screen actions from many people. These are generally trivia, top-down racing, and gambling titles; a few action titles exist, but these are as rare as hens' teeth (in terms of publishing, not actual game rarity). Of course, it is also possible to make a multi-player alternating game, but these were avoided for a variety of reasons. Honestly, I can see a 4-P SMB type game working, although players may get bored after a while of watching the best of the group sail through levels without death. (This is one reason that 4/5P alternating games were never en vogue.)

To answer your main question: Yes, the FourScore (unmodified), but wired to the FC should work for USA multiplayer games, such as 'RC Pro-Am II' and (...groan...) 'Friday the 13th'.

As I recall, the FourScore and Satellite use both $4017 and $4016 for reads, with $4016 for Player-I & Player-III and $4017 for Player-II & Player-IV. It multiplexes the signal and the system must make additional reads on each register to get the values of button presses on all four controllers. As the range of $4016 is limited, I don't know with certainty what will happen to Player-I and player-III on NES multiplayer games. It would be simpler if Player-I/II were $4016 and Player III/IV were $4017, but this is not the case. Actually, perhaps this ends up being nicer, as it does still ensure that Player-II will have a working set of Start/Select buttons.

It should (in theory work correctly; as a last-resort, it is also possible to wire a NES FourScore to the FC logic board (internally), if you find that some US/EU games won't cooperate.  If a game doesn't work on FC hardware because of this type of problem ('Start' button required), you can mark it down as a programming fault, although there are rare exceptions of games that actually use all eight buttons for in-game functions, and in these cases, external controllers become a necessity.

Honestly, I still feel like making an external microphone as well, but that apparently interests no-one but myself. :bomb:

P.S. This article (http://nesdev.icequake.net/ffpa.txt) is another good resource on how the EXP port works, along with EXP controllers, and why $4016.D1 is present where D0 is not present.

P.P.S. Apparently I've reached No. 700 as well.  :pow:
Title: Re: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.
Post by: P on October 31, 2011, 02:34:02 pm
Thank you! I've read the article and I think I kind of understand most of it, haha!
But it's a good thing because this seems to me that a Famicom can do everything a NES can do (and more) with adapters that aren't very hard to make. One problem would be PAL NES games that are sped up to play at the right speed in 50Hz as they will play too fast on a Famicom. One would have to get a PAL NES for that or maybe somehow use the slow function on a Hong Kong Famicom. I don't have any NES games anymore though.

So these mahjong games or whatever could theoretically be played with external controllers if they just map the buttons to these addresses, though it wouldn't be convenient to remember what button is what. But I guess the mahjong controllers uses a signature that the game is looking for so it can't be played without the special controller.

Intresting that there seems to be official games like Super Spike V'Ball that supports both the Famicom and the NES method for four players.


External microphone? How would you do that? Maybe connecting a microphone with a volume slider to the EXP port and map it to the Controller II microphone? It would be good for AV-Famicom that doesn't have one or maybe a NES version. It could also be usefull if the Controller II microphone breaks which it seems to do quite often. I'm not sure mine works.
Title: Re: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.
Post by: Xious on November 01, 2011, 10:10:44 am
I worked on the FC external microphone for the New Famicom (A/V) and the NES: You can look at an (older version) schematic that I did for the FC microphone circuit here (http://atariusa.com/Famicom_Schematics/Microphone/FC_Microphone_Schematic.pdf), which you may use as a reference on how to do this. I do have later versions of this project schematic somewhere that detail the actual microphone circuit, but I think I stopped when I ran into a little difficulty with part of the design--possible a symbol that I didn't have and didn't feel like making.

I restore all the microphone devices on Famicom units that I service, and make them perfect.They are rarely broken, but need some adjustments and TLC. I have a procedure that I follow and I have special tools for working on such items, so I make them like-new 100% of the time I was mostly interested in an external microphone for the New Famicom and the NES, so I designed a circuit to handle this, but never actually built one. It should work, but I can't guarantee it, as I have yet to test in in actual use.

This will work on the Famicom, the NES and early 'New Famicom (A/V)' systems, as well a all Sharp systems. Essentially, any model with dual 40H368 ICs, even clones; it will be more difficult on the NES-2 and late-model 'new Famicom' systems, as they use a single custom IC that replaces the dual '368s and I don't have any documentation for it; I have yet o R-E it either.

Of course, if anybody has a pinout for that part, I can knock out a schematic for it. It would also be possible to add a 40H368 to the system to implement this on designs that don't have one This would not work on NOAC clones

Honestly, the NES offers the most possibilities, as the full FC EXP port is available via the NES Expasion Port:: I designed an adapter  (http://atariusa.com/flashback/thumbnails.php?album=263)for this purpose that also bridges the NES audio, but I put the project on ice when another bloke on NESDev set about to make an almost identical project on his own.. I saw no need to compete, but I have the design fairly close to finished--PCB layout and all--and may still make a few one day

I do need to make a few finished PCBs and do a test-run just to ensure that I have everything correctly wired, but it should be 100% right and I allowed for multiple audio configurations on the design (PowerPak and FC/FDS Expansion Sound) as well as some other interesting additions, such as a header for special signals only found on that port.

I also started working on a NES RAM-Adapter (FDS) cartridge, but this is a tedious project that I haven't touched in ages. Anyhow, because of this, and the other features, the NES has the most potential for expansion, but I still favour the FC in terms of aesthetic design.

If you want a true PAL Famicom, you can substitute the CPU and PPU as well as the X'tal from a PAL NES into any Famicom. This is a very simple modification, assuming you have access to affordable PAL NES systems.. You can simply swap the components between the two, making the NES NTSC and the Famicom PAL, so you won't be out any working hardware.

When you split controllers, you are mapping the buttons to the different inputs on the 4021B SSR; buttons are not mapped to any registers. The register differences, specifically the Read Data is important to designate what player controller is being used, but not the buttons. You can use the same read for two controllers if you split the buttons between two devices wired through a single 4021B. I think the Track & Field controllers are like this.

I don't know off-hand how the Mah-Jong controllers work. They may be little different to any standard controller, or use a strange mapping for buttons,or dual 4021Bs; they could be like the Family Fitness mat. :bomb:
Title: Re: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.
Post by: P on November 01, 2011, 01:13:11 pm
Wow lots of components, I'm not confident enough to start on something like that now. I assumed they breaks often because I saw many people that got a buzzing noise were the "solution" was to disconnect the microphone. Mine seems to work except for the fact that those bunnies continues their bouncing.

So you are saying that the NES is the one with more potential because it has an EXP port with special signals that the Famicom doesn't have? I guess I should stop telling people that the Famicom is the superior one then. But I guess there are no known products that uses these features yet. And the NES requires a lot of work if we wants to get all the extra sound, the microphone, the FDS, and the Famicom EXP port, while the Famicom just requires some easy to make adapters for all NES accessories that I can think of. The biggest problem with the original Famicom seems to be the lack of AV outlets, especially for us Europeans as the RF is no good here. And even if one makes an AV-mod it's still lots of problems getting a good picture out of it.

Yeah I heard about switching the crystal and that. It's nice to know but if I really want a PAL system I could just buy a PAL NES and use it as it is. I just hoped to have both in the same system, you can't have everything I guess. hehe

Oh I see, I'm just a layman when it comes to electronics but I love to learn new things. I think I mix up registers and inputs maybe.
Title: Re: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.
Post by: Xious on November 02, 2011, 07:48:58 am
My personal usage ratio is (Famicom 100:1 NES). This is because I use a Twin system, so I can use FC, NES and DFS games on one console, with built-in controllers and a microphone (for the games that require it) as well as easy and modular use of accessories. There are two or three signals present on the NES EXP port that ae not on the FC, although it would probably be possible to modify the system to include them. The NES design also makes it easier to add custom external game hardware, via ten pins on the game cartridge that can be connected (via the EXP bus) to an external device.

This has not been used to date, although I had some plans for its possibilities. The NES port also has CPU data lines that could be interesting, although you can replicate this on the FC via wiring modification. The NES also has less noise on the common earth plane, so there is less video interference. This can also be corrected on the FC, but it is at present a painstaking process, and I have yet to simplify it  in a consumer-friendly manner.

If you really want external controllers to work with every title, you can also patch in a NES-style or FC-style extension cord to the Controller-I inputs (internally) and thus provide a Player-I port externally that will not have problems, as it is directly configured to act as $416D0, and games that only read data there will therefore work flawlessly. If you configure it for FC-type controllers, you want to wire the normal D1 line to the internal D0 line.

You could also modify the EXP port to add the D0 line (tied onto the $4016.D1 on pin 13) on a rocker-switch so that normal controllers that are stubborn will work: You would merely need to slip the switch to change connections between D0 and D1 when required To do this, you would cut the trace to pin-13, then add a connection to a rocker switch to that pin, and the other two connections to the normal path that went to EXP-13 and to the $4016.D0 line on the primary controller port. :bomb:
Title: Re: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.
Post by: DDCecil on November 28, 2015, 07:21:53 pm
Sorry for the necro-bump, but over the weekend I decided to try out every game I own and see which worked with a controller in the FEP. Not surprising, but most NES games not released in Japan didn't work. Some did though like Marble Madness!

* - Japan only games that don't work

Super Mario Bros. 2/USA - mentioned in first post
Spider Man: Return of the Sinister Six
Ferrari Grand Prix
Terminator 2
Alien 3
Home Alone 2
Ring King
Arkista's Ring
Fisher Price Firehouse Rescue
Fisher Price Perfect Fit
Battleship
Destination Earthstar
Gyromite
Monster Truck Rally
Paperboy
T & C Surf Designs
Hyper Olympic
Battletank
Friday the 13th
Slalom
Tengen Tetris
Pachicom*
Lode Runner
Antarctic Adventure*
Pinball
Championship Lode Runner*
Raid on Bungeling Bay
Golf
Nuts and Milk*
John Elway's Quarterback
Wolverine
Shockwave
Pipe Dream
Cybernoid
Darkman
Joe and Mac
Hyper Sports*
4 Nin Ichi Mahjong*
Target Renegade
Silkworm
Tom & Jerry
Race America
Prince Valiant
Kiwi Kraze
Flying Hero*
Saiyuuki World*
Terminator
Silver Surfer
Ghostbusters II
Jurassic Park
Donald Duck (Snoopy Sports Spectacular)
Gotcha
Seikima II*
Arkanoid II* (Thinks it is a paddle!)
Ghoul School
Simpsons: Bart vs Space Mutants
Time Lord
Zelda II: Adventure of Link (JPN Disk version works fine)
Title: Re: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.
Post by: P on November 29, 2015, 04:00:40 pm
You can add Battletoads, Battletoads & Double Dragon, Tengen Pac-Man, Tengen Ms Pac-Man and MicroMachines to the list.

Rare apparently learned later to read the expansion port because RC Pro-Am 1 and 2 do read it. I think Marble Madness was ported to NES by Rare too?
Title: Re: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.
Post by: Great Hierophant on December 01, 2015, 11:20:38 am
Based on this list, there are typically three reasons why a game for the NES or Famicom does not support player 3 input from the expansion port. 

1.  It was programmed by western programmers for the NES, which does not implement the four player function in the same way.  As noted, occasionally exceptions to the rule do exist, but most western developers probably were not aware of the feature and had no reason to support it.  Many of these games were never released for the Famicom. 

2.  The game was originally designed for the Famicom in the early days of the console before using player 3 as player 1 became an unofficial but widely adopted standard.   Because the standard was unofficial, some Japanese programming teams may not have been aware of it, explaining later games that do not support it.

3.  There is a peripheral conflict.  Paddles and Light Guns get plugged into the expansion port on the Famicom.  This makes the expansion port officially unavailable for extra controllers.    Gyromite/Robot Gyro mainly uses the second controller. 
Title: Re: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.
Post by: Flemishdog on December 25, 2015, 01:24:03 am
I remember Konamic Sports in Seoul (Track and Field II) doesn't let you use any expansion port controllers. No cheating with turbo!
Title: Re: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.
Post by: DDCecil on November 25, 2016, 10:55:49 am
Bump with a couple of more that don't work:

Maniac Mansion (English version)
Smash T.V.
Star Wars (JVC version)
Star Wars The Empire Strikes Back
Tiny Toon Adventures Cartoon Workshop
Title: Re: Famicom games that do not work with pads connected through the expansion port.
Post by: Great Hierophant on June 17, 2017, 07:00:49 pm
Here is the list of Famicom games I have compiled which do not support expansion port controllers :

4-nin Uchi Mahjong
Antarctic Adventure (No Rev. only, Rev. A supports expansion controllers)
Aoki Ookami to Shiroki Mejika - Genghis Khan
Arkanoid
Arkanoid II
Battletoads
Binary Land (controls are reversed)
Championship Lode Runner
Donald Duck
Golf
Flying Hero
Hook
Hyper Olympic
Hyper Olympic Genteiban!
Hyper Sports
Igo Meikan
Igo Shinan
Igo Shinan '91
Igo Shinan '92
Igo Shinan '93
Igo Shinan '94
Konamic Sports in Seoul
Lode Runner
Nobunaga no Yabou - Zenkoku Ban
Nuts & Milk
Pachicom
Pinball
Raid on Bungeling Bay
Robot Gyro
Sangokushi
Saiyuuki World
Seikima II - Akuma no Gyakushuu
Solstice
Star Wars - The Empire Strikes Back
Star Wars (Victor)
Super Mario USA
Wit's