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80sFREAK
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« Reply #1620 on: September 25, 2015, 04:22:01 AM »

So the bottom price is $25-30 and top depends on people. I remember thread about R-Type  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #1621 on: September 25, 2015, 04:38:45 AM »

So the bottom price is $25-30 and top depends on people. I remember thread about R-Type  Roll Eyes

R-Type was a repro / hack / fanmade fake, whatever you prefer to call it.

For any game other than Exciting Basketball and SMB2j, I would never sell for less than $50. 
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YAMAHA
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« Reply #1622 on: September 25, 2015, 11:19:09 AM »

 
 
For older games the price is different - but I gathered that 80sFreak was suggesting making a batch, and so I took a stab at what I think those would fetch on today's market (in the spirit of the price check thread).
 
 
I get that not everyone likes repros, or wants to see them but they're not just worth the costs of parts in the general market.  Sure they wouldn't be worth as much as Kaiser or WM but I think they're worth around $30-$60 if you were to offer them to the wider collecting community.  Playing on an Everdrive's all well and good but many like to collect individual carts, original or otherwise.
 
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« Reply #1623 on: September 25, 2015, 01:06:35 PM »

I personally feel that making repros of carts like this is against the spirit of the site.  Why would it be okay to make a repro batch of the FDS ports onto cart, but not okay to make an Archimedes Gradius, a Safety Rally, a Gimmick, etc?  Just because the original software conversions were done illegally is a moot point, imo; two wrongs don't make a right, and at least with the originals, they are original, despite being boots at the same time. 

Just as an example of what can happen with this sort of project, let's look at Super Maruo.  The game is quite rare, and I **would have** honestly ponied up and paid a large amount for this game, for my collection.  People that chat with me and have seen the pictures of my collection know that I am quite serious with my collecting, basically OCD on the matter, so when I say the aforementioned statement, I think some here would not dispute my claim as to **have been** willing to pay a nice sum for that game.  These days though, I will **never** pay any large amount for that game, simply because of the fact that it has been reproed so many times.  With the technology of this day and age, it is easy to create a real-looking repro of games like that, and it isn't worth it for me to get burned when throwing such money on the table. 

In the end, who really wins (or loses?)  The sellers lose, since suddenly key players / collectors are jumping out of the market, due to authenticity issues (and maybe some are just willing to settle for a nice-looking fake for half the price, who knows).  Some collectors also lose, those that want to pick up said games, but now have to be concerned about fakes.  Or those collectors that already picked up those games at market prices, who then see the market tank as their valuable games suddenly are turned into pennies. 

The only ones that win are general gamers (but why wouldn't they be content with everdrive or emulation...besides, why not just run it on a disk drive or in the case of something like Super Maruo, the game isn't worth more than just one play).  So that leads me to conclude that the only winners are collectors that aren't willing to pay the going rates / aren't willing to do the footwork to track down an authentic time piece. 

If an original Dababa FDS on cart conversion sells for around $50 - $60 and the people making the repros are selling them for $30 - $60, gamers are still paying the same price for the game, so aside from general availability (and seeing how long the FDS conversion carts I have sitting in my sale thread at best offer sit, there isn't a HUGE demand), what is the benefit?  The only benefit I can see is from the other people jumping into the market and making a quick buck, just like what happened in the NES scene. 

But with that selfishness and greed, it has turned that scene into a zoo, sadly.  Let's not turn the Famicom market the same way. 

 
 
For older games the price is different - but I gathered that 80sFreak was suggesting making a batch, and so I took a stab at what I think those would fetch on today's market (in the spirit of the price check thread).
 
 
I get that not everyone likes repros, or wants to see them but they're not just worth the costs of parts in the general market.  Sure they wouldn't be worth as much as Kaiser or WM but I think they're worth around $30-$60 if you were to offer them to the wider collecting community.  Playing on an Everdrive's all well and good but many like to collect individual carts, original or otherwise.
 

Post Merge: September 25, 2015, 01:10:01 PM
Edit:  I don't want to create any animosity between members or anything, but this is one subject I feel strongly on, and for which I am willing to fight.
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« Reply #1624 on: September 25, 2015, 01:47:38 PM »

 
 
I understand your feelings on it, but 80sFreak asked for a general price check on what those items might go for - and so that is (judging from what NES repros tend to cost anyway) what they would go for.

I know you personally hate repros but you do have to appreciate that is indeed a subjective view and the price check thread i snot the place to debate the ethics of repros, that thread is here: http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=11714.0

The Famicom World stance is basically on the fence and we try not to be necessarily for or against them.  We're here for the collective community, of which some like them, some don't.

Looking at many repro review videos on YouTube however, it's clear there are many 8-bit collectors out there that want an individual cart, legitimate or not to play with.  That's not me endorsing them, just stating.

Same with the price range, that's not me endorsing these - just stating what I would expect them to go for if they were offered generally.

I don't think discussion on here is going to change the market either way - it is a bigger scene than this site / forum alone and it's ineffective for us to persuade ourselves to be Luddites if it's already happened.  

Look on Yahoo Japan Auctions, Tao Bao and of course eBay and you'll see it's widespread.  Again not me endorsing, just stating the observation.

We'll never allow dodgy sales threads to survive or pop up here, so as far as the site is concerned, I think we are in safe hands.  But back on topic, the value of such carts would be $30-$60 generally.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 01:53:24 PM by L___E___T » Logged

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« Reply #1625 on: September 25, 2015, 02:05:11 PM »

 Roll Eyes   Upset Rolleyes

Wait?  So if the value of a real one is $60, and the value of a "repro" version is also $60?  How does that make any sense? 

By looking and comparing across Famicom and NES formats, it is like comparing apples to mangoes, to be frank about it.  On one format (NES), there was never a widespread piracy back in the day.  Sure, places like Indonesia received bootleg NES carts, and a small handful made its way into Canada and the like, but that's it.  Sure, somewhere, there might be a FDS conversion of Falsion or whatever on a NES cart, a period piece, but the amount out there (and those that have turned up) is few to none, due to the such limited scope of distribution of pirated NES 72 pin carts back in the day.

On the other hand, in basically every region of the world that didn't receive NES (excluding Japan), bootleg Famicom carts were the norm.  They turned up in Eastern Europe, in South America, in Africa, in all parts of Asia, even some were bundled and sold in Canada with adapters, from what I understand.  So FDS to Cart Falsion and Dababa carts, for example, exist in reasonable quanities, just as much as any others do, and thus needs for "reproing" this sort of cart is just as a way to line the reproer's pockets, especially given the price point (how does it even make sense for a repro to be worth equal to the "original"?)

As I mentioned earlier, and I'll say it again.  I don't think this sort of stuff should be encouraged or endorsed on here, what is the point of collecting modern fakes and polluting the market, taking a dump in every other collector's pond, and giving a middle finger to boot (just for self greed)?  As a whole, the community needs to look at the big picture, not short-sighted profits.

With that said, Price Check forum might not be the place for debating repro ethics, but I also feel it is not the place to be trying to gauge your price points for what to charge for your modern repro fakes either. 


 
I understand your feelings on it, but 80sFreak asked for a general price check on what those items might go for - and so that is (judging from what NES repros tend to cost anyway) what they would go for.

I know you personally hate repros but you do have to appreciate that is indeed a subjective view and the price check thread i snot the place to debate the ethics of repros, that thread is here: http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=11714.0

The Famicom World stance is basically on the fence and we try not to be necessarily for or against them.  We're here for the collective community, of which some like them, some don't.

Looking at many repro review videos on YouTube however, it's clear there are many 8-bit collectors out there that want an individual cart, legitimate or not to play with.  That's not me endorsing them, just stating.

Same with the price range, that's not me endorsing these - just stating what I would expect them to go for if they were offered generally.

I don't think discussion on here is going to change the market either way - it is a bigger scene than this site / forum alone and it's ineffective for us to persuade ourselves to be Luddites if it's already happened.  

Look on Yahoo Japan Auctions, Tao Bao and of course eBay and you'll see it's widespread.  Again not me endorsing, just stating the observation.

We'll never allow dodgy sales threads to survive or pop up here, so as far as the site is concerned, I think we are in safe hands.  But back on topic, the value of such carts would be $30-$60 generally.
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« Reply #1626 on: September 25, 2015, 02:10:46 PM »

 
 
What would you expect them to get though in a wider sense?  80sFreak one way to test would be to make one and then see.  i wasn't just referring to NES, but there's desire from that side for sure.

When I said $30 - $60, I meant that the general FDS conversions may get $30 (i.e. half a legit port), with something like SMW getting $60.  It's all theory though until something actually exists.
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80sFREAK
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« Reply #1627 on: September 25, 2015, 02:13:19 PM »

wow wow wow... I heared, someone said "quick buck", so go ahead, get one, or you wanna cut?  Huh

Mods, please split "repro ethics discussion" from price check.
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« Reply #1628 on: September 25, 2015, 02:24:26 PM »

I am still confused though.  What good would come from releasing modern repros of these games, for a similar price point as the originals, especially when the originals are readily available?  Maybe we should just open up shop and start making repro Lickles and Herberekes, Gimmicks and Adventure Island IVs, etc.  Many people want to collect physical carts, but don't have access to getting the originals, why not? 

L___E___T, I respect your opinions and hold you in high regards on this forum.  With that said though, the idea of making repros and then even selling them for basically full price of the originals just doesn't suit well with me.  As an aside, you've surely seen the list I've created and have been maintaining (the latest revised version is only on my harddrive, but PM me if you want it) of Famicom game carts...excluding multicarts (what a mess to try to document), I've been trying to document all hacks, variants, etc. released  **during** the Famicom's "time", basically no Aliexpress stuff makes it on the list, but if a company like Nice Code decides to create a new unlicensed game, it makes it on. 

I have a few carts that just sit in limbo, because even after handling tons of old bootlegs, tons of modern (Aliexpress - style) bootlegs, etc, I just have no idea if they are period pieces or modern-made stuff not worthy of inclusion.  First world problems, I know, but some people actually do care about the history of the machine, etc and likewise, some people actually **do** care about collecting **authentic** bootlegs (I just had a chat with someone recently about how the original Steepler Dendy carts (i.e. boots) sell like hotcakes, yet the new incarnations are worthless).  Either way, projects like the one brought to light a few posts up just blur the line and muddy the waters, and are more damaging than they are useful.


 
What would you expect them to get though in a wider sense?  80sFreak one way to test would be to make one and then see.  i wasn't just referring to NES, but there's desire from that side for sure.

When I said $30 - $60, I meant that the general FDS conversions may get $30 (i.e. half a legit port), with something like SMW getting $60.  It's all theory though until something actually exists.

Post Merge: September 25, 2015, 02:25:18 PM
wow wow wow... I heared, someone said "quick buck", so go ahead, get one, or you wanna cut?  Huh

Mods, please split "repro ethics discussion" from price check.

Mods, please split "price check of non-existant games that a forum member wants to create as repros" from price check too. 
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80sFREAK
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« Reply #1629 on: September 25, 2015, 02:33:20 PM »

fcgamer, you are a bit late. Such a shop already exist for quite long time.
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« Reply #1630 on: September 25, 2015, 02:37:24 PM »

Of course there are always going to be people taking the low road and selling repros to make a quick buck, but that doesn't mean that I will sit and watch it pollute these forums as well. 

fcgamer, you are a bit late. Such a shop already exist for quite long time.
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« Reply #1631 on: September 25, 2015, 07:56:22 PM »

The fact of the matter is that it is not against forum rules to buy/sell/make/what ever bootlegs or reproductions of games for old game systems such as Famicom/super Famicom/Genesis/MegaDrive/gameboy etc (rule 12). It is however against forum rules to troll flame or fight with other members (rule 6).

No one has broken a rule yet but the way things are progressing, that might change.

Fcgamer. I understand you view on modern bootlegs and repros and appreciate your passion for standing up for what you believe in,  having said that, maybe it might be better to just agree to disagree since this topic has come up many times in the last couple years, and it always ends the same.

80sfreak. Same applies to you. Let's just agree to disagree on the "issue" at hand here and get back to the topic that this thread was designed for.

You are both valued members and I respect both of you. Let's try to move past this and get back to playing retro games. Cheesy
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« Reply #1632 on: September 25, 2015, 10:33:45 PM »

SumixXam, what you state below is true; however, it would be extremely hard to ever set an adequate rule addressing such things in place, due to the nature / history of Famicom itself.  Let's say for instance that we decided to forbid the sale of fakes on the site, in the spirit of collecting; what about Dendy games and Pegasus games, Whirlwind Manu games, etc?  Of course they would also end up on the forbid list despite being "more authentic" than a modern repro.  Thus I think a rule specifically forbidding the sale of repros would never come to fruitation, due to the number of strings necessary to make it work.

I personally don't know about you or others, but as I mentioned earlier, the way things have gone in the NES collecting scene is a real shame, and so far the Famicom scene has kept such riff raff more limited.  So while it may not necessarily be against the rules (please see my explanation above as to why something like this would never end up being against the rules), I still do maintain that it is against the collector spirit, (if we look solely from a gamer perspective, it should be okay to make and sell 1:1 Lickle and Gimmick repros...), and from where I sit, I personally wouldn't want to be in a community that supports or condones such stuff, either openly or otherwise, since actions like that ultimately hurt more than the casual collector.

The fact of the matter is that it is not against forum rules to buy/sell/make/what ever bootlegs or reproductions of games for old game systems such as Famicom/super Famicom/Genesis/MegaDrive/gameboy etc (rule 12). It is however against forum rules to troll flame or fight with other members (rule 6).
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« Reply #1633 on: September 26, 2015, 12:06:55 AM »

I personally don't agree with making 1:1 copies of games and trying to pass them off as original. our members can usually spot such cases though and threads like that usually end up getting locked. Perhaps a rule can be made prohibiting the sale of 1:1 copies of games. Would that be a step in the right direction?
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« Reply #1634 on: September 26, 2015, 06:24:44 AM »

The conversation keeps coming up because nobody does anything about the problem is my 2c worth. It would be quite easy to make the selling of reproduction items and unlicensed material against the rules. Perhaps setup a poll to vote on these 2 questions and once and for all settle this. Any talk of it in the future will be a ban.
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