Kira Kira Star Night DX First PV released. (EDIT: New 8 bit music power boards!)

[jensma]

I'll whip out the design tomorrow evening, I'm at my parents right now

[Ghegs]

You're mixing apples with oranges. I was making a point how the Famicom hardware hasn't changed since 1993, so the sensible course for any homebrew developer would be to develop the game for the original hardware, not for a clone system that was made 20 years afterwards. Make it 100% compatible with the original hardware and the game has a better chance of working with all the clones out there, rather than making it 100% compatible with a specific clone model and hoping all the other systems, including the original, can run it at all.

Please read the rest of the post as well.

I can take any NES homebrew physical cart (not that I own every single one, but I have seven of them), put a NES-to-FC adapter on it and play it on my AV Famicom. I'm pretty sure the developers did not plan for their game to be played this way, yet it works perfectly.

Battle Kid 2 is just as much an unofficial, unlicensed release. Yet it runs perfectly on AV Famicom, despite that feature probably not being high (or even present) in the developer's plans. THIS is the standard, from a cart-building technological standpoint, that needs to be held for physical homebrew releases and their developers. There is no double-standard here. Battle Kid 2 gets a pass simply because it works. Like I said earlier:

If a NES homebrew physical cart was released that didn't run on original NES but did run on, say, Retron 5 for example, it would be panned out of the Internet.

Shitty things are shitty. Clone machines never got out of the toilet in the first place, and 8BMP and Kira Kira belong there right with them. Your love for clones has clouded your mind and suddenly defending a cartridge that might not run and potentially even damages original systems makes sense to you.

[fcgamer]

Actually, I don't play my games on a clone.  When I want to game, I only use official hardware (Twin Famicom) and most of the clones that I have / collect are the early ones, basically 1:1 with the original hardware.  Modern clones and stuff like that don't interest me at all.

My mind isn't clouded, but I feel as some of the folks here (you included) are being unrealistic and unreasonable with the whole thing.  Here is why.

As I had mentioned earlier, with NES homebrew, there are / were dozens if not hundreds of games that were developed, yet did not actually run on real hardware.  Please refer to the NES World link.  Some were even developed by NES homebrew pioneers.  Now we have come a long way since that, for sure, but it doesn't change the fact that this had been an issue at one point.

Regarding damaging machines (I think someone else mentioned that yet again), please refer back to the unlicensed games on the NES.  Some of them used risky measures for defeating the lockout chip, and could damage the machine.  This release is also unlicensed, nothing new here.  An unlicensed game could damage the hardware, should I be surprised?  Not really, I guess.

And to go back to the point that you failed to reply to:  You yourself said that "how clones are being manufactured now is completely irrelevant.  They're unofficial, they're not by Nintendo, they are not Famicom.  At best they are Famicom-compatible, if even that"  But don't those same words apply equally as much to an unofficial game?  They should, as they follow all the same points. 

You're mixing apples with oranges. I was making a point how the Famicom hardware hasn't changed since 1993, so the sensible course for any homebrew developer would be to develop the game for the original hardware, not for a clone system that was made 20 years afterwards. Make it 100% compatible with the original hardware and the game has a better chance of working with all the clones out there, rather than making it 100% compatible with a specific clone model and hoping all the other systems, including the original, can run it at all.

Please read the rest of the post as well.

I can take any NES homebrew physical cart (not that I own every single one, but I have seven of them), put a NES-to-FC adapter on it and play it on my AV Famicom. I'm pretty sure the developers did not plan for their game to be played this way, yet it works perfectly.

Battle Kid 2 is just as much an unofficial, unlicensed release. Yet it runs perfectly on AV Famicom, despite that feature probably not being high (or even present) in the developer's plans. THIS is the standard, from a cart-building technological standpoint, that needs to be held for physical homebrew releases and their developers. There is no double-standard here. Battle Kid 2 gets a pass because it works. Like I said earlier:

If a NES homebrew physical cart was released that didn't run on original NES but did run on, say, Retron 5 for example, it would be panned out of the Internet.

Shitty things are shitty. Clone machines never got out of the toilet in the first place, and 8BMP and Kira Kira belong there right with them. Your love for clones has clouded your mind and suddenly defending a cartridge that might not run and potentially even damages original systems makes sense to you.

[Ghegs]

As I had mentioned earlier, with NES homebrew, there are / were dozens if not hundreds of games that were developed, yet did not actually run on real hardware.

Not even 10% of games in that list have an actual physical release from the devs themselves, which is the whole point here. It's irrelevant that a game doesn't run on real hardware, IF the developer never releases a physical cart of it. 8BMP/Kira Kira devs did physically release a game that doesn't run on real hardware, so they deserve all the flak that's coming to them.

And to go back to the point that you failed to reply to:  You yourself said that "how clones are being manufactured now is completely irrelevant.  They're unofficial, they're not by Nintendo, they are not Famicom.  At best they are Famicom-compatible, if even that"  But don't those same words apply equally as much to an unofficial game?  They should, as they follow all the same points.

I did respond to it, but I'll spell it out for you again. Clones aka. system hardware that attempts to replicate the original but fails (to quote Great Hierophant: "inaccurate sound (reversed duty cycles), jailbars in the video, mushy controllers and garbage build quality") is shitty. Game software, or in this case game hardware since the physical cart is to blame, that doesn't work or destroys the console is shitty. Neither get a pass. Not because they're unlicensed - because they're shitty.

Battle Kid 2 is just as much an unofficial, unlicensed release...Battle Kid 2 gets a pass because it works.

[Great Hierophant]

I have no quarrel with the software, its just the hardware on which it comes with which I take issue.  Standards improve and developers have to evolve with it.  What corner-cutting passed for acceptable in 1998, 2002 or 2006 is no longer acceptable in 2016.  What you are buying when you are buying Kira Kira is not an improvement, although I am glad that a proper solution won't require someone to shell out $200.  But for $50-60, the customer should not have to go through those hoops to ensure the cart will run on his Famicom. 

[fcgamer]

You miss my point though, in your response.  You say that clone hardware is irrelevant and unrelated to Nintendo, since it is unofficial; yet then you expect unofficial software (which is equally unrelated to Nintendo) to run on Famicom.  That is my problem with your argument.  Kira is as unrelated to Nintendo as Shitty Clone X. Because it will run in some Famicom machines, it is advertised as such, but it is an unofficial product after all.

As I had mentioned earlier, with NES homebrew, there are / were dozens if not hundreds of games that were developed, yet did not actually run on real hardware.

Not even 10% of games in that list have an actual physical release from the devs themselves, which is the whole point here. It's irrelevant that a game doesn't run on real hardware, IF the developer never releases a physical cart of it. 8BMP/Kira Kira devs did physically release a game that doesn't run on real hardware, so they deserve all the flak that's coming to them.

And to go back to the point that you failed to reply to:  You yourself said that "how clones are being manufactured now is completely irrelevant.  They're unofficial, they're not by Nintendo, they are not Famicom.  At best they are Famicom-compatible, if even that"  But don't those same words apply equally as much to an unofficial game?  They should, as they follow all the same points.

I did respond to it, but I'll spell it out for you again. Clones aka. system hardware that attempts to replicate the original but fails (to quote Great Hierophant: "inaccurate sound (reversed duty cycles), jailbars in the video, mushy controllers and garbage build quality") is shitty. Game software, or in this case game hardware since the physical cart is to blame, that doesn't work or destroys the console is shitty. Neither get a pass. Not because they're unlicensed - because they're shitty.

Battle Kid 2 is just as much an unofficial, unlicensed release...Battle Kid 2 gets a pass because it works.

[mfm]

Do you disagree and feel that the modern Aliexpress Chinese Famiclone crap is good?  I guess it is good for those cheap-ass gamers that don't want to buy / collect the antique carts, just throw in a request to some guy and pay $7 to get a game cart shipped to your door.  Then play pretend to your friends and relatives that you own an antique cart...

You ever see an early 90s pirate cart versus an Aliexpress one?  Build quality is 100% different, one is high quality with chips, durable case, the other is globs and a case that is so brittle, even looking at it funny could break it.  Besides, what is the fun of collecting some modern crap that one can get made at will, just by waving a $5 bill?  That is why I call it cheap garbage, namely because it is.

And if we want to dig deeper, it seems to me that those 400 in 1 He Cards wouldn't even run on original hardware without modification, along with some other modern-made Aliexpress crap.  Do you dare to disagree on that statement?  So to go against your other post, no, they don't work in original hardware.   

The point that I'm making and that you're avoiding is that if you take the $7 aliexpress cart and compare it to the $60 Kira Kira cart then the $7 is a higher quality product that works properly on real Famicom machines!

The 400in1 you're talking about is one rare exception that i've personally never seen sold anywhere. I bought the current 400in1 cart + the 198in1 both for like $7 shipped and they work fine on a real AV Famicom. One exception is completely irrelevant among thousands upon thousands of different carts that DO work on real Famicoms.

There's no antique carts just older bootlegs with different dodgy looking labels. Very few people would think they are anything to brag about or hold any particular value.

[fcgamer]

Disagree and disagree.

There are tons of carts that don't play in real hardware, and they are all modern-made.  The 400 in 1 cart, and I've had other multicarts of similar type.  One that comes to mind is a 120 in 1 Waixing multicart, IIRC. 

And to compare quality, based on what?  The modern pirates, the build quality is not so good at all.  Could easily be snapped in two by bare hands, etc.  Do you disagree about this? 

About the old bootlegs, I beg to differ, and so would a lot of people.  I've argued about this time and time again. Sadly the "purists" that only collect official games and then homebrews that they justify as being in a different category than unlicensed don't seem to understand or get this point though.  Single cart > multi cart, chips > globs, old bootlegs > modern bootlegs.  If you dare to venture into the B/S/T sections and look around, folks from South America and Eastern Europe love collecting the old bootleg carts.  Why?  Because that is what was released in their countries back in the day, Dendy and Pegasus, etc.  For them, that is the "official" stuff.  They don't want the Japanese stuff, nor do they want the modern crap.

As I said before, what is the point of collecting something if you can just pay someone to make it in an instant, at will?  What is the point?

Do you disagree and feel that the modern Aliexpress Chinese Famiclone crap is good?  I guess it is good for those cheap-ass gamers that don't want to buy / collect the antique carts, just throw in a request to some guy and pay $7 to get a game cart shipped to your door.  Then play pretend to your friends and relatives that you own an antique cart...

You ever see an early 90s pirate cart versus an Aliexpress one?  Build quality is 100% different, one is high quality with chips, durable case, the other is globs and a case that is so brittle, even looking at it funny could break it.  Besides, what is the fun of collecting some modern crap that one can get made at will, just by waving a $5 bill?  That is why I call it cheap garbage, namely because it is.

And if we want to dig deeper, it seems to me that those 400 in 1 He Cards wouldn't even run on original hardware without modification, along with some other modern-made Aliexpress crap.  Do you dare to disagree on that statement?  So to go against your other post, no, they don't work in original hardware.   

The point that I'm making and that you're avoiding is that if you take the $7 aliexpress cart and compare it to the $60 Kira Kira cart then the $7 is a higher quality product that works properly on real Famicom machines!

The 400in1 you're talking about is one rare exception that i've personally never seen sold anywhere. I bought the current 400in1 cart + the 198in1 both for like $7 shipped and they work fine on a real AV Famicom. One exception is completely irrelevant among thousands upon thousands of different carts that DO work on real Famicoms.

There's no antique carts just older bootlegs with different dodgy looking labels. Very few people would think they are anything to brag about or hold any particular value.

[Ghegs]

You miss my point though, in your response.  You say that clone hardware is irrelevant and unrelated to Nintendo, since it is unofficial; yet then you expect unofficial software (which is equally unrelated to Nintendo) to run on Famicom.  That is my problem with your argument.  Kira is as unrelated to Nintendo as Shitty Clone X. Because it will run in some Famicom machines, it is advertised as such, but it is an unofficial product after all.

To clarify, I said clones are not related to Famicom in response to your argument that the hardware has "changed" over the years, that the clones are a valid continuation of the Famicom hardware. That was the point of that sentence.

And yes, I do expect unofficial Famicom software to run on a Famicom. Pretty much everybody does, and should. To recap what I've said earlier:

If somebody released a physical NES homebrew (which is unofficial, unlicensed, etc) that didn't run on a NES but did run on Retron 5, that release would be panned. NES homebrew developers make sure their game is playable on a real NES, it's not only a point of pride, but makes business sense. NES fans expect it, and there are much more original NES systems still being played than there are Retron 5's.

So when a FC homebrew developer releases a game that might not work on a real Famicom, could even potentially damage it...that's bad. That's really, really bad. There's no getting around this. There is no reason at all why the Kira devs, or any FC homebrew developer, couldn't make sure their game is playable on a real Famicom. They are just being cheap, lazy, or really, REALLY ignorant.

[P]

We don't even have this game yet, how can you guys be so sure the "frying issues" would occur with this one as well?

Well the previous one evidentially fried some people's systems, and they still use the same warning as before, which sounds like they are probably still partly using the faulty boards. So how are anyone supposed to trust them now? I can't believe anyone defends garbage like this.

Right, and as we pointed out earlier, Game Genie, Codemasters games, etc also had the risk of frying machines back in the day.  You talk about defending garbage, I talk about being realistic.

Right, those stun-CICs are potentially dangerous and I'd avoid them if I still had a NES.


If I understand it correctly, fcgamer's point is that since this is a game released long after the Famicom ceased production, it's unrealistic to expect more from it, and we just have to swallow that it may explode in our faces after we just paid $60 for it. Is that right?
Most of the other arguments are beside the point.

And most of us don't agree to that. No way that I'm risking my Famicom. I think this discussion has reached its conclusion.

[fcgamer]

My point is, the game is unlicensed.  Unlicensed games have always had issues regarding quality, regarding safety to the machine, etc.  It isn't a new thing.  Unlicensed games have always had issues with compatibility too.

Everyone else has expectations that the game should have 100% compatibility, should be 100% safe, should be of good quality, etc.  But the game isn't an official Nintendo product.  Considering what I said in paragraph one, it fits the realm okay of its companions, and as such, I take no issue.  But I do take issue to people expecting it to be something that it is not.  It is not an official game, so it shouldn't be treated as such, and the expectations shouldn't be held at that level either.

We don't even have this game yet, how can you guys be so sure the "frying issues" would occur with this one as well?

Well the previous one evidentially fried some people's systems, and they still use the same warning as before, which sounds like they are probably still partly using the faulty boards. So how are anyone supposed to trust them now? I can't believe anyone defends garbage like this.

Right, and as we pointed out earlier, Game Genie, Codemasters games, etc also had the risk of frying machines back in the day.  You talk about defending garbage, I talk about being realistic.

Right, those stun-CICs are potentially dangerous and I'd avoid them if I still had a NES.


If I understand it correctly, fcgamer's point is that since this is a game released long after the Famicom ceased production, it's unrealistic to expect more from it, and we just have to swallow that it may explode in our faces after we just paid $60 for it. Is that right?
Most of the other arguments are beside the point.

And most of us don't agree to that. No way that I'm risking my Famicom. I think this discussion has reached its conclusion.

[P]

I see so that's why you drag in Codemasters and Waixing, although I don't think it matters if it's a new problem or not. An expensive product that works poorly should still be complained at. I don't give a damn if it's licensed or not, Nintendo's licensing for Famicom is not even in use anymore.

[fcgamer]

I see so that's why you drag in Codemasters and Waixing, although I don't think it matters if it's a new problem or not. An expensive product that works poorly should still be complained at. I don't give a damn if it's licensed or not, Nintendo's licensing for Famicom is not even in use anymore.

Those unlicensed games were also expensive back in the day, Action 52 is the classic example. 

I just think this product and the one before it are taking too much heat, all facts considered.

[P]

So what? They were garbage deals too.

[ImATrackMan]

Some of my Japanese contacts had told me that it was illegal in Japan to repurpose Famicom carts for homebrews, and as such , why the first Kira Kira was so limited / so expensive.  If there was really a new board designed, not just reuse of old parts, please show.

Here you go, buddy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcHmZKbgFYU