Famicom Cart Availability of Homebrew Titles

[M-Tee]

Being a homebrew developer who only owns a Famicom,  I feel that I've got a bit of a dog in this race. LIke fcgamer, I've long been a proponent of Famicom releases of homebrew titles, and have tried (with little success so far, but a hopeful future to get famicom cart releases of the projects I've worked on).

I'd like to maintain this OP as a list of official (as in authorized by the developer) Famicom releases of homebrew titles.

(List Still in Progress, see replies from other posters for more titles)

RIKI

• 8-Bit Music Power Final
  
• 8-Bit Music Power Encore
  
• Kira Kira Star Night DX
  

Tulip House

• Ilevan
  
• Vegetablets Go
  

Retrotainment Games / Cash In Culture

• Haunted Halloween '85
  
• Haunted Halloween '86
  

Expected Homebrew Titles
(those with Famicom versions announced)
Action 53 Vol. 3: Revenge of the Twins
Astro Ninja Man

If anyone has an info for filling out the above list, please post it, and I'll add them.

Also, I'd propose continuing the discussion of homebrews on the Famicom in general in this thread, so as not to clutter each title's thread.  I also have some thoughts regarding the ongoing conversation, but I'll hold them until another user posts, so I don't clutter the OP.

[fcgamer]

Here is my list.  I am combining modern/indie releases and homebrew together for this, otherwise I feel like it is just splitting hairs a bit to determine what is what.  The Columbus Circle stuff would be more indie IMO, but something like Halloween '86, whereas IMO more on the homebrew side of things, the cases were coming out of China, en masse, not some sort of small scale thing either.  So splitting hairs, I'm fine to classify how everyone else  deems fit.

8Bit Music Power
8Bit Music Power Final
Blade Buster
Halloween '86
Halloween '87
Kira Kira Star Night
Kira Kira Star Night Dx
Mr. Splash!  (multiple versions)
NEO Heiankyo Alien
Utaco

[L___E___T]

  
Hang on - is this thread and list meant to only track physical releases and ignore digital releases?  That can also get a bit fuzzy, I'd recommend a combined list to avoid confusion.


I do think you should note where/how each had original physical releases, and which did not.  There's a lot of great work by Shiru like Zooming Secretary and Altar Ego for example, who is based in Russia so would have the 60 pin format in mind I would imagine, but with no physical release yet.  However I imagine that could easily change as more and more solutions pop up.

Blade Buster for example, there are many repros of it but I never saw a physical release by the original creator.  So that looks incorrect, he only made a label design and the ROM, no cart.

Similarly Utaco - are we convinced this had a physical release?  An image of a cart exists because it started life as a label only, for Famicase exhibition.  Then later, a game concept was made for a game Jam, that was eventually completed after that Game Jam.  So you see it gets complicated - the original 'creator' did not release a physical edition of this game.  Adding notes helps, because for example there isn't anything to prove there was ever a physical game on here: https://zurashu.itch.io/utaco

Nintendo Age do track repro / homebrew / indie releases with some consistency.  While not perfectly, it means they at least have info on each item as so much can vary game by game.  Look at M-tees release for example - perhaps imaged as a 60-pin release but only a 72-pin release is viable right now, but that could change soon.  So notes help to understand the circumstances, albeit with flexibility on the definitions used.


A handy NES/FC homebrew list is here - some of which are Japanese developed so I see them as Famicom homebrew
http://www.romhacking.net/?page=homebrew&platform=1&category=1&perpage=20&title=&author=&search=Go

Mr.Splash should be on the physically released list perhaps - as the chips, label, shell, box (and I suspect cart shell too) were made available in kit form, as well as released digitally by the creator.  A NES version also by a 3rd party distributor based out of France.

If we lump digital into this as well then it becomes easier to manage.  Titles can be updated when they see a 60-pin release.  Also a related thread on this same (or similar) subject is here:  
https://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=10453.0

There are also a few homebrew releases for the Disk System that hardly get mentioned.  Perhaps an idea to combine into a tracker thread.

[fcgamer]

Yes, L__E__T is correct, I appologize for not adding notes to my selections.


Blade Bluster - Developed by a Japanese guy, a label design was created, the guy had given his blessing for people to make personal carts.  So it seems clear this was Famicom intention,

Utaco - Game was made, well ROM, even utilized Famicom mic IIRC.  Again the intentions were Famicom minded, no physical release, but was developed as Famicom game, not NES.

Kira Kira Star Night - Basically the same as the Dx version, I guess, but not 100% identical.  Again, ROM, some carts were made, developed as Famicom homebrew, not NES.

Mr. Splash - More clear, as a Famicom homebrew, with the "DIY" kits for making the game.


I am not familiar with things such as Zooming Secretary and Altar Ego, so I cannot comment; however, if any of these games were released physically and officially on the NES, with the authors not opting for a 60 pins release, then I would not feel comfortable with calling it a Famicom homebrew, no matter what the region might be. 

IIRC, there was a guy in China, who made a homebrew game ONLY for the 72 pin format, probably due to marketing towards NES collectors, also to separate his cart from the mass of pirate carts over there.  But China was anything but a 72 pin region.  Likewise, Lucky Penguin.  The one author is from Brazil, I presume, and the other from Poland.  Brazil had carts in both formats, NES and Famicom, whereas in Poland, Pegasus (60 pins) was king.  If anything, one of the reasons I feel so sad about the carts getting an instant 72 pin release, and maybe a 60 pin release later.  Either way, I personally feel country of origin is not a large enough factor to label a homebrew as NES or Famicom, without examining other things too. 

[M-Tee]

I'm not one to split hairs over the "homebrew" moniker either. I also apologize for not including a larger variety of titles in my OP, but at the time I didn't have the time to do the proper research.

It's late now, but I'll update OP tomorrow. Thanks to both of you for the info.
Post Merge: March 11, 2018, 10:19:38 am

I am honestly quite disappointed with the unwillingness of so many people to put out a Famicom version of homebrew games, for those who want them.  I always hear things about new PCBs and shells and what not, but being someone who has watched the homebrew scene grow, from mostly tech demos that would only run properly in emulators, to Solar Wars, to Bomb Sweeper, to complex games, I sort of view it as wanting to go from nothing to "Step B", skipping the "Step A" stage totally.
...

@Mods, feel free to move this discussion wherever you see appropriate, or keep it here, I was just following up to the other member's question which is why I replied here to begin with.

Responding here out of respect for keeping the Lucky Penguin thread about Lucky Penguin.

More often than not, developers aren't also publishing, and for whatever reason (likely due to a smaller demand and a lack of available new components), the publishers are usually the ones reluctant to do Famicom pressings, not necessarily the developers (at least not most of the ones I've worked with.)

New NES shells were kind of a big deal when they hit, and it was the result of a number of homebrew publishers pooling their resources together to scratch up the dough for having a custom mold built. I think we'll start seeing more Famicom products show up in the near future as InfiniteNESLives gets their Famicom board(s) more available. (I'm not sure if they provided boards for the Cash In Culture titles, but I know that there's a Famicom version of Action 53 being made with new parts because I designed the packaging and labels for it.)

I understand your preference for the higher plastic quality of repurposed shells (and I am one to generally prefer the more environmental friendly alternative, so I do see appeal in reusing what might be landfill material otherwise). However, doing so not only polarizes the customer base but also increases labor of production (removing labels cleanly for instance) while either decreasing size of print run or decreasing run consistency. Personally, I like projects I'm involved with to be available with consistency (cartridge color, inserts, etc.)-even though not being the publisher, I haven't always had that luxury.

[ym2612]

I'm working on a Famicom homebrew project, and availability of cart shells is currently the biggest barrier to reproducing a FC cartridge for sale. On Aliexpress you can find the cheap pirate-style shells, but the workmanship on these is poor and the material is thin.

I've considered doing whatever needs to be done to produce an injection mold capable of making FC-style shells, but I'm out of my depth when it comes to actual knowledge of manufacturing. Depending on the overall setup cost, it's something I'd consider giving financial support to.

[VegaVegas]

I've considered doing whatever needs to be done to produce an injection mold capable of making FC-style shells, but I'm out of my depth when it comes to actual knowledge of manufacturing. Depending on the overall setup cost, it's something I'd consider giving financial support to.

Maybe you would consider starting another stupid kickstarter request, or maybe you would be able to try to run this by yourself without it??

[P]

If you are really going to make an injection mold make sure to keep to a standard like the Everdrive (which is based on one of the Adventure Island games) or MMC5 cart cases if you want to make sure there is room for bigger boards.

[ym2612]

Yeah, I'd like to keep it like the original Nintendo FC cart design, which is pretty similar to what the Everdrive N8 uses.

I don't know about a kickstarter. I need to network with some other folks (hopefully in this community) who know more about manufacturing than I do.

[fcgamer]

I'm not one to split hairs over the "homebrew" moniker either. I also apologize for not including a larger variety of titles in my OP, but at the time I didn't have the time to do the proper research.

It's late now, but I'll update OP tomorrow. Thanks to both of you for the info.
Post Merge: March 11, 2018, 10:19:38 am

I am honestly quite disappointed with the unwillingness of so many people to put out a Famicom version of homebrew games, for those who want them.  I always hear things about new PCBs and shells and what not, but being someone who has watched the homebrew scene grow, from mostly tech demos that would only run properly in emulators, to Solar Wars, to Bomb Sweeper, to complex games, I sort of view it as wanting to go from nothing to "Step B", skipping the "Step A" stage totally.
...

@Mods, feel free to move this discussion wherever you see appropriate, or keep it here, I was just following up to the other member's question which is why I replied here to begin with.

Responding here out of respect for keeping the Lucky Penguin thread about Lucky Penguin.

More often than not, developers aren't also publishing, and for whatever reason (likely due to a smaller demand and a lack of available new components), the publishers are usually the ones reluctant to do Famicom pressings, not necessarily the developers (at least not most of the ones I've worked with.)

New NES shells were kind of a big deal when they hit, and it was the result of a number of homebrew publishers pooling their resources together to scratch up the dough for having a custom mold built. I think we'll start seeing more Famicom products show up in the near future as InfiniteNESLives gets their Famicom board(s) more available. (I'm not sure if they provided boards for the Cash In Culture titles, but I know that there's a Famicom version of Action 53 being made with new parts because I designed the packaging and labels for it.)

I understand your preference for the higher plastic quality of repurposed shells (and I am one to generally prefer the more environmental friendly alternative, so I do see appeal in reusing what might be landfill material otherwise). However, doing so not only polarizes the customer base but also increases labor of production (removing labels cleanly for instance) while either decreasing size of print run or decreasing run consistency. Personally, I like projects I'm involved with to be available with consistency (cartridge color, inserts, etc.)-even though not being the publisher, I haven't always had that luxury.

Without trying to throw disrespect towards anyone, but every time I hear western homebrew groups talk about uniformity as the reason they don't want to repurpose Famicom / Famiclone shells, I cringe.  Anyone that seriously collects for Famicom knows that it is ...anything but uniform.  Even publishers that designed their own cases, often changed up and made several different designs.  Likewise, Famicom carts are like the rainbow.  Clone carts were produced in dozens of colors, even the same game.  Stuff that was a bit more up and up (like Sachens), even had several different color shells, such as black and blue. 

Uniformity is a thing seen with the NES.  :p

If those cheap orange Aliexpress cases become the de facto homebrew Famicom shells, I think I will scream and puke at the same time.  Those cases have tainted associations to begin (fake repros, which collectors would never want to touch even with a ten foot pole), and the build quality is also so terrible.

I've seen people such as xiceman making translations and repros of prototypes and such, for cheap, and also looking quite nice.  No idea why a homebrewer can't do that, especially when there are people literally offering to help source quality cart shells, in exchange for exact cost (cheap) and a finished copy of the game.  It just blows my mind.

[VegaVegas]

I've seen people such as xiceman making translations and repros of prototypes and such, for cheap, and also looking quite nice.  No idea why a homebrewer can't do that, especially when there are people literally offering to help source quality cart shells, in exchange for exact cost (cheap) and a finished copy of the game.  It just blows my mind.

It obviously looks like you have absolutely no idea about the associated costs regarding reproducing new carts and you are all just guessing pointlessly. As you said, you can buy any sort of cheap plastic shells from aliexpress but the quality is unacceptable. If you want to reproduce new plastic shells using good quality plastic, the actual costs to produce just molds for it is approximately 5000$ (USD). It doesn't even count the actual material cost to produce plastic shells itself. I haven't even mentioned the risk associated with starting such business. Yes everyone shows interest and opens new topics regarding interest in new good quality plastic shells, although finding anyone to invest such amount of money and taking all the risk and responsibility for the entire project is another story. I haven't even started on the topic to just find customers for the final plastic shells. At this point the final question is whether you will manage to sell all of them at the end and whether you are able to cover all costs associated to reproduce them or else you will actually be losing on the business. At the worst case scenario, there also might be customers that are simply not satisfied with them, open ebay/paypal cases and trying to return them or even forcing the seller to compensate for the return postage paid by the buyer, making the original seller lose even more. Don't forget about ebay/paypal claims filed by buyers stating the sold product is "fake", sometimes forcing the seller to offer full refund right away and the staff requests the buyer to throw it away because it is "counterfeit", making the seller lose all money at the end. At the top of all that, there still might be new blood wars on forums regarding making repro carts (again) and blaming sellers all the way for doing so

[P]

Yeah, I'd like to keep it like the original Nintendo FC cart design, which is pretty similar to what the Everdrive N8 uses.

I don't know about a kickstarter. I need to network with some other folks (hopefully in this community) who know more about manufacturing than I do.

I'm not talking about outward design but screw holes and such, there are no standard for Famicom cart shells as companies made their own shells and boards. If you use the Everdrive one, people will be able to produce boards that are compatible with a type of cart that is already being reproduced (for Everdrives), and you thus avoid inventing a new standard that will potentially not be used.
I suggested MMC5 for big carts because it looks like Famicom MMC5 games all use the same screw hole layout, so that's a good standard if someone is ever going to bother to make repro MMC5 boards (or other big boards).

You may try contacting Paul at http://infiniteneslives.com/ he was interested in making Famicom repros long ago, I don't know how it turned out. I suggested the same things to him as I did to you for Famicom cart shells, and I think he was gonna use Everdrive shells.

[fcgamer]

It obviously looks like you have absolutely no idea about the associated costs regarding reproducing new carts and you are all just guessing pointlessly. As you said, you can buy any sort of cheap plastic shells from aliexpress but the quality is unacceptable.

...

At the top of all that, there still might be new blood wars on forums regarding making repro carts (again) and blaming sellers all the way for doing so

I am not trying to come across as rude or argumentative with the post that will follow, but I kindly ask you to reread the post I had made previously.

I **never** suggested for anyone to use Aliexpress cart shells, and even stated so much that the quality is terrible, and they look terrible.  The two Halloween games went this way, and although I am happy that they were formatted for Famicom, I really don't like that case design at all, hence why I stated in my last post that I really hope it does not become the standard for Famicom homebrew releases.

For a long time, I have been an advocate of repurposing older Famiclone shells for use with homebrew games. Such as this:

https://famicloneblog.wordpress.com/2016/04/23/super-new-year-cart-15-in-1-part-2/

(first cart on the page).  Easy shell to open, easy to find, available mostly in black and blue, for consistency.

I reached out to several folks over the past few years about helping them obtain such shells and selling them **at cost** to make runs of Famicom homebrew games.  And in exchange for one product from the run (i.e. one cart, let's say $50) I'd deduct that price from the shell cost.  This is not the $5000 you are talking about, the total cost would probably be around $150 - $200 for a batch of 100 - 150 carts, and the product would be study, be consistent, and look great too.  Heck, it would even look like many old-era games did.  Yes, I wanted and offered this not to be making money or what not (actually I'd be losing money), but just to help out the community and get homebrew games onto Famicom carts.

In addition, price the games a few bucks higher than the NES versions, since there would be added hassel / expense.  This is great though, as it helps discourage people from buying Famicom versions who normally wouldn't, which would throw off any sort of accuracy when trying to guage demand on such projects.

Start out with a batch of 100, see what happens, have a sign-up list.  If the demand is much more, increase the set to fill the demand.  After doing a few runs of homebrews, it will be easy to see what the sweet spot is.

MaarioS, I've watched how the NES homebrew / repro scene had initially started, back in the late 90s, and grown into what it is today with custom boards, custom shells, and what not.  Yes, it is more trouble to do things in the above manner, but there is drastically less risk, and we still get quality results of homebrew games on Famicom.  As I mentioned before, as a community we should try to go through the "A phase" before going to the "B phase", and any information gained along the way would also be immensly useful.

It's a community effort, and I've already pledged to do my part in it, with little gain for myself.

On another note, I just want to add:  we are seeing left and right people producing so-called "reproductions" of high-end Famicom games, as well as translations, hacks etc; if people have no issues taking the above route for said products, why is this some huge issue when it comes to making homebrews, especially when a guy is eager to help source the (quality) shells? 

[VegaVegas]

I dont think you still understand what I said and you are straight out just rejecting it and talking about your own excuses again. I talked about producing completely new plastic material, not sourcing donors and destroying old carts as people are already guilty enough of doing so and should not be practiced anymore. I talked how painful this can be to find any sort of qualified engineer that can do such a project like making new plastic cases and what the associated costs are to produce them. I tried to explain how that works. If you are so lousy and cant respect this fact and you just say what option is more comfortable for you personally then please get out with your catholic excuses somewhere else

[fcgamer]

I dont think you still understand what I said and you are straight out just rejecting it and talking about your own excuses again. I talked about producing completely new plastic material, not sourcing donors and destroying old carts as people are already guilty enough of doing so and should not be practiced anymore. I talked how painful this can be to find any sort of qualified engineer that can do such a project like making new plastic cases and what the associated costs are to produce them. I tried to explain how that works. If you are so lousy and cant respect this fact and you just say what option is more comfortable for you personally then please get out with your catholic excuses somewhere else

I have no idea where your attitude is coming from, or why you are acting so rude and poorly towards me.

I understand exactly what you had said in your post; my point is, the NES homebrew scene did not go from no carts towards new parts overnight, likewise Rome wasn't built in a day.  I watched that scene grow into what it is today, and would love for the Famicom homebrew to become larger, with more people producing wonderful games for a gaming platform that I love.

Likewise, I am realist, and also pragmatic.  We don't know what sort of demand a run of Famicom homebrew carts would get, especially if it were to appear on both NES and Famicom mediums.  If the game were exclusive to Famicom, even some collectors with preference towards NES would get a cart, but on both platforms, I imagine the demand for 60 pins version would be less, at least among the western communities. 

When people over at Nintendo Age used to make limited runs of homebrews or prototype carts, somewhere between 100 and 200 carts was the sweet spot, to sell out.  I'd imagine 100 carts would be more than enough for the Famicom, probably even less, but we don't know unless we put out a release and see what happens.

If the demand is 100 carts per time, of course producing a mold and making new shells isn't reasonable, and I still have no idea why so many people want to go this route or no route, in the NES homebrew scene a mold came much, much, much later after there was more demand.

Finally, if you have such a problem about personally resourcing old carts to make a new product, then next time I get multiples of some crap game that no one wants to purchase, like Top Gun, I'll gladly sell or trade all to you, same with all of the multicarts I have lying around and can't get rid of.  Repurpose seems a much better option than throwing them into the garbage, do you disagree?

I'm trying to be pragmatic, I would rather choose the option of having homebrew games on Famicom version to not having homebrew games on Famicom cart.  I am being realistic in expectation, and think by working together, we could achieve more-than acceptable results.  I guess you prefer no carts to having carts then? 



Post Merge: March 30, 2018, 02:48:49 am
Also I saw on your collection page, it looks like you have some repro carts yourself (Final Fantasy English version, probably that Zelda cart as well).  Cart style looks quite old, were these repurposed carts by chance? 
Post Merge: March 30, 2018, 02:55:45 am
edit:  Finally, Catholic excuses?  Come on man, today is Good Friday, this is Easter holiday coming up.