Battle Kid Famicom Release

[Retrospectives]

As per the Wikipedia page for Battle Kid, the Japanese release has been reworked quite a bit.  They did more than just update the art.  Also, regarding the anime style in particular, the sequel to Battle Kid also had anime-style cutscene graphics, so it wasn't something that was just done to cater to a Japanese audience.

I see. Yeah, I think is what P said about localization, just my subjective opinion. Many time thing tend to become "Japanized" in a way that intention might be good but result the opposite. Example is many year, we never had option of subtitles on English movies but they were directly dubbed into Japanese. Still on TV they dub. For me as I wanted study English and really getting grasp of the type of humour or context get lost in translation so I tend like when thing stay the way it "originally intended", but if already anime style was intended then I understand and for me is not really that big deal, especially not only for a platform game hehe.

I just wish they went through different retailer in Japan as I know there are other company totally competent of release the game with safe boards but that is again up to them and I apologze anyone if there was misunderstanding regarding my view. I am not that all negative to releases is just not that interesting for me personally since I knew about this particular game since many year, but if can open up more eye for other Japanese people to get a glimpse into more western devs I am more than happy. 

[Ghegs]

As per the Wikipedia page for Battle Kid, the Japanese release has been reworked quite a bit.

Oh, I didn't realize there were so many changes. With all that it's almost Battle Kid 1.5. The change from one-hit kills to hitpoints is especially interesting, that should diminish the I Wanna Be The Guy-feel of the game quite a lot. New stage and boss is cool as well.

That Wiki page also says bit-games re-programmed the game from scratch to encompass all those changes. That's pretty hardcore. Damn, now I'm starting to be really bummed out about the boards, I want to try this version out.

[SteelGeneral]

I'm not familiar with Columbus Circle and their Famiclones/Homebrew carts but I'm interested in the Famicom Battle Kid and Neo Heiankyo Alien. What exactly is dangerous about them? I've read all the links from this thread but can't find much info elsewhere. If I bought them I'd primarily be playing on a RetroUSB AVS. Would they be safe on there or just as dangerous as on an original Famicom?

[UglyJoe]

Neo Heiankyo Alien

I'd recommend against that one

[fcgamer]

I'm not familiar with Columbus Circle and their Famiclones/Homebrew carts but I'm interested in the Famicom Battle Kid and Neo Heiankyo Alien. What exactly is dangerous about them? I've read all the links from this thread but can't find much info elsewhere. If I bought them I'd primarily be playing on a RetroUSB AVS. Would they be safe on there or just as dangerous as on an original Famicom?

Long story short (from my understanding), the pcbs regulate the voltage differently and insuficiently. So playing the game on an original Famicom can supposedly cause damage to it.  Simply put, the game was developed for use on clone machines.  An unlicensed game designed for clones. 

[P]

The Famicom is built to use 5 V logic and the carts Columbus Circle keeps using are designed with 3.3 V parts without sufficient conversion between the two voltage levels, which means it's bound to fail at some point. Some of their earlier games didn't work on most Famicoms and other Famicoms broke down when the cart was used. It worked better on some Famiclones that had bigger tolerance to this kind of design (but of course it will probably fry many clones as well). Later games they released seems to have become better so it will work on more Famicoms. But the problem is still there, someone compared it to smoking, it will not immediately slay your Famicom but it will damage it over time and kill it slowly.

Fcgamer seems to think this is a Famicom vs Famiclone problem and keeps defending them for this reason. They are marketing a shitty cart as a Famicom game, making people killing their Famicoms, and that's the problem here.

Also relevant: https://db-electronics.ca/2017/07/05/the-dangers-of-3-3v-flash-in-retro-consoles/

[fcgamer]

Fcgamer seems to think this is a Famicom vs Famiclone problem and keeps defending them for this reason. They are marketing a shitty cart as a Famicom game, making people killing their Famicoms, and that's the problem here.

I am not the technical guy here, but I would like to ask one simple question, which would require one simple answer (yes / no):  Are the Columbus Circle clones 3.3 V -based or 5 V-based?  What about other modern (cheap) Famiclones being put out by companies such as Subor? 3.3 V or 5 V?  If the answer is yes, the clones are based using 3.3 V as opposed to the 5 of the original Famicom design, then I see absolutely no issue, as the product would essentially be an unlicensed product designed for use on an unlicensed machine.

Furthermore, one could even argue that since the Famicom's patents have expired, this is a Columbus Circle game pak for use on a Columbus Circle Game Entertainment Machine.    It wouldn't be the first time this has happened, such as the VT02/VT03 & OneBus (Famicom-based) technologies.  Likewise the AVS Machine (is that what the NES/Famicom clone made by bunnyboy is called?) had / has it's own line of NES-based carts, for that own machine.  Going forward we will probably see this more and more.  While the carts do run in some Famicom machines, perhaps it is time to recognize them for what they are, independent game designed for an independt product.

 

[Ghegs]

Likewise the AVS Machine (is that what the NES/Famicom clone made by bunnyboy is called?) had / has it's own line of NES-based carts, for that own machine. 

Nope, those games adhere to NES standards so they work on the original NES, AVS, Analogue NT and anything that can run NES cartridges.

This is a really easy thing: If you keep to the NES/Famicom standards, then your game will work with the original consoles (of which 60 million were sold worldwide) as well as whatever clone systems that can properly play NES/Famicom cartridges. This makes sense for both the developer/publisher and the player, right? So your game is playable on pretty much anything.

If you don't stick to NES/Famicom standards, then you're limiting to the game to specific clone systems. Not many people are willing to buy a specific clone just to play a few specific games, if they already have an original console or something else available. The game's user base is limited for no good reason. This doesn't make sense, right?

[fcgamer]

Yes, those games may adhere to NES standards, but they were developed and being advertised as launch titles for the AVS:

https://www.retrousb.com/

If you go to this website and want to purchase those games, you can't even find them under the homebrew section.  You need to go to the AVS section.  They were AVS launch titles.

While Subor games often will run on real Famicoms, those games were designed for use in Subor Famiclones.  Therefore, as long as they did the job properly there, I doubt it would matter to Subor if their games ran in real hardware or not.

With the VT02/VT03 and OneBus it was the same situation.

Now we are with Columbus Circle, and the tradition continues.  They designed indepdent games for their independent machine, which just also happen to run on some Famicoms, albeit coming with a slight risk.  But if Columbus Circle was manufacturing these games for use on their machine, why do they even need to bother guaranteeing 100% compatibility with original hardware?  As long as they are open on the matter (and it seems as though they are) then I'm honestly not sure what the big deal is.  Does it suck for those who only own / use original hardware?  Sure, but the situation seems pretty much the same as what everybody else has been doing, in the past and present as well.

IMO, the games are doing exactly what the maker advertised and said they would do, i.e. run on their machines, and then possibly on some older hardware but with some potential issues.  Likewise, with some many hardware revisions with original Famicom machines (and then if also throw in official stuff like the Twin Famicom), I'd venture a guess that even if the game were designed to run on "real" hardware specifically, there would still be issues.  The NES has seen these issues before, with certain games (I think The Immortal is one)

Likewise the AVS Machine (is that what the NES/Famicom clone made by bunnyboy is called?) had / has it's own line of NES-based carts, for that own machine. 

Nope, those games adhere to NES standards so they work on the original NES, AVS, Analogue NT and anything that can run NES cartridges.

This is a really easy thing: If you keep to the NES/Famicom standards, then your game will work with the original consoles (of which 60 million were sold worldwide) as well as whatever clone systems that can properly play NES/Famicom cartridges. This makes sense for both the developer/publisher and the player, right? So your game is playable on pretty much anything.

If you don't stick to NES/Famicom standards, then you're limiting to the game to specific clone systems. Not many people are willing to buy a specific clone just to play a few specific games, if they already have an original console or something else available. The game's user base is limited for no good reason. This doesn't make sense, right?

[P]

Fcgamer seems to think this is a Famicom vs Famiclone problem and keeps defending them for this reason. They are marketing a shitty cart as a Famicom game, making people killing their Famicoms, and that's the problem here.

I am not the technical guy here, but I would like to ask one simple question, which would require one simple answer (yes / no):  Are the Columbus Circle clones 3.3 V -based or 5 V-based?  What about other modern (cheap) Famiclones being put out by companies such as Subor? 3.3 V or 5 V?  If the answer is yes, the clones are based using 3.3 V as opposed to the 5 of the original Famicom design, then I see absolutely no issue, as the product would essentially be an unlicensed product designed for use on an unlicensed machine.

Furthermore, one could even argue that since the Famicom's patents have expired, this is a Columbus Circle game pak for use on a Columbus Circle Game Entertainment Machine.    It wouldn't be the first time this has happened, such as the VT02/VT03 & OneBus (Famicom-based) technologies.  Likewise the AVS Machine (is that what the NES/Famicom clone made by bunnyboy is called?) had / has it's own line of NES-based carts, for that own machine.  Going forward we will probably see this more and more.  While the carts do run in some Famicom machines, perhaps it is time to recognize them for what they are, independent game designed for an independt product.

I'm not too technical either and I don't know the answer to that question for sure, but since it's a Famiclone that is compatible with Famicom games, I really doubt it would be 3.3 V or else it will probably damage normal Famicom carts.

The main problem is that they are using parts in a circuit outside of the tolerance, which is something that is widely known to be very bad. That article about flashcarts I linked is supposedly exaggerating some things according to some people, but most still seems to agree that mixing 3.3 V and 5 V is just a very bad idea. So what we have here isn't a compatibility problem but a bad build-quality problem that is potentially harmful for the ROM cartridge and the console. That's why I don't think it's worth defending.

If they really market it as a game for their own partly-Famicom-compatible system it wouldn't be a problem, although I'd prefer they'd use a different cartridge shape so it won't accidentally be inserted into Famicoms in that case, but they clearly wrote Famicom on it and just some small warning note that it may burn most systems its used on. Also even used on their own Famiclones it's still a shitty cart that probably will fail one day due to the 3.3 V and 5 V mixing.

[fcgamer]

From what research I've done just now, I'm pretty certain that some (if not a lot) of the modern Famiclones are running 3.3 V instead of 5, which would make the unauthorized product running perfectly fine on an unauthorized, modern machine.

If (modern) clone machines are running at 3.3 V, and (old) clone machines / original hardware are running at 5 volts, then it demonstrates two diverging paths for the Famicom, if software from one branch cannot be safely ran in a machine on the other branch, but examining the purchasing habits of the consumers, I'd be interested in seeing how things went.

For example, I'd suspect that people purchasing modern Subor clones would also be purchasing modern multicarts or aliexpress singles to fill their game library, primarily.  Just like a purist would probably purchase a real Famicom, and a handful of legit, licensed carts.  Then there are folks that sit everywhere between these two positions, who own multiple clones and legit hardware, bootleg carts and legit carts.

As ironic as it sounds, I'd imagine Japan being the exception (just because of how easy it is there to access real hardware and real carts for an affordable price).  Elsewhere, worldwide, I am certain that many casual gamers would walk into an electronics store, see a cheap Famiclone and then some cheap multis or whatever, pick them up to get a nostalic thrill and then be done after a few months.  We've seen this before, basically, only with NES / SNES Classic (though both are legit products).

Likewise though, if new Famiclones are being made (and successfully selling) in Japan, maybe the same thing is going on there. 

That is why I am able to defend the product.  We are collectors, but for many folks, 3.3 V machines are the rage, and likewise, this unauthorized game is being developed for use on a modern, unauthorized system. 

Two different branches, basically how the Famicom evolved. 

[SteelGeneral]

Thanks everyone for filling me in! I never would've have thought about the voltages on repro boards if I didn't stumble on this thread. I suppose I'll avoid the Columbus Circle titles for the time being.

This whole thing makes me wonder who Columbus Circle's market is. They can't be selling that many famiclones can they? And the average famiclone buyer probably isn't looking for homebrew titles. I mean I consider myself a pretty diehard retro game collector and I didn't get into NES homebrews until a year or two ago.

[L___E___T]

This whole thing makes me wonder who Columbus Circle's market is.

Thank you for raising this - this to me, is the key point.  Who is their target market?  Surely it is Famicom aficionados.  People in Japan that love the little official machine.

So why make a product that harms that machine?  Bound to be problematic and of course it doesn't make sense.  That's not to say the release doesn't have merit though.  

I think it's pretty silly honestly that they are in this situation where the people that should be buying and celebrating your game the most are actively put off buying it at all...  

In which case it's foolish from a business POV - it's definitely going to limit sales to some degree from their target market.  So it really seems foolish to go with that decision.

Trouble is they're now locked in to this decision.  They won't want to consider this a mistake, but this FW thread alone is testament to how much it put off your target market.

[fcgamer]

The problem is though, imo, that we are examining the situation from the eyes of purist collectors - therefore I beg to differ on the whole situation.

As an example:  Over my lunch break I'll typically swing by the post office, to either mail out packages or to pick up items that I've ordered.  By 14:00, my students are waking up from their naps, and they get quite curious as to what I have in the packages, especially since they know I like gaming, and also have a wide variety of "nerd toys" at my desk, i.e. Mario and Pokemon toys mostly, picked up over the years.

Appropiate or not, my students often ask me for a sneak peak at what's in the packages, and I often oblige, as I can then consolidate things a bit instead of carrying huge boxes home. One of my students (five years old) saw one of my Famicom carts one day, and said "Oh I have some of those".  I thought to myself, "Yeah right, I don't even think you know what it is" but the next day, lo and behold, he brought his cartridge in and showed me.  It was a modern Famiclone multicart, the type that would be using 3.3 V and wouldn't run properly in real hardware.

While modern clone machines can still be easily found at game shops here in Taiwan (as well as modern multicarts), I highly doubt the kid said to his daddy, "Hey I want one of those!"  This especially holds true when the kids I am teaching are primarily from extremely rich high class families.  What more than likely happened is that the dad popped his head into a shop, saw a Famiclone, felt nostalgic, and plunked down $15 to purchase it and a game or two, played it for a few months, and then had his fix.

I feel quite confident that the same syndrome is happening world wide, with the price of clones so cheap, and the availability so high, especially after the Nintendo patents wore off.  With that being held true, I can quite easily see folks being interested and curious enough to purchase a few homebrew / aftermarket games for the machine, if they are being stocked readily available, at that point when the nostalgia bug hits.  It's simple, and brilliant really.  People see the machine, feel nostalgic, also see a new piece of software for it, purchase the machine (in this case Columbus Circles) and the software, call it a day.

Although it feels counter-intuitive to those of us here on these forums, this seems to be a better business strategy than to be marketing new games at a very small niche market of gamers.   

As an anecdote of sorts, even my gf knows of the Final Music Columbus Circle cart, and so does her friend, who had gone to Japan.  Although my gf occassionally plays games, she is definitely not into things on the same level as anyone here.   

This whole thing makes me wonder who Columbus Circle's market is.

Thank you for raising this - this to me, is the key point.  Who is their target market?  Surely it is Famicom aficionados.  People in Japan that love the little official machine.

So why make a product that harms that machine?  Bound to be problematic and of course it doesn't make sense.  That's not to say the release doesn't have merit though.  

I think it's pretty silly honestly that they are in this situation where the people that should be buying and celebrating your game the most are actively put off buying it at all...  

In which case it's foolish from a business POV - it's definitely going to limit sales to some degree from their target market.  So it really seems foolish to go with that decision.

Trouble is they're now locked in to this decision.  They won't want to consider this a mistake, but this FW thread alone is testament to how much it put off your target market.

[L___E___T]

 



I get what you're saying and I know what you mean.  The product isn't made exclusively with people like us in mind, but you have to realise - purists are going to be the primary / target market (can elaborate why) and as such it really is a bad business decision to have something in your product that actively acts against purchases for that top target group.

Sure some kids and clone owners will pick it up, but when the game is double the cost of your average clone machine - don't bank on tons of orders, they're price sensitive.

Purists on the other hand will drop megabucks on stuff they have to own - there's just less of them.  You also rely on those folks to evangelise for you - not slay the product.

So that's why I think it's a poor decision - I can only guess they went with a cheap option, and found out a bout it later.  Too late / expensive to do anything real about it now.

Compare this with the Classic Mini series, or the Super NT - where the emulation has bee fine tuned and a pixel perfect option exists for example.  It really matters for sales.