Best Twin Famicom model ?

Started by Famicom.In.My.Blood, May 17, 2022, 02:49:19 pm

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Famicom.In.My.Blood

June 21, 2022, 03:20:35 pm #15 Last Edit: June 21, 2022, 05:20:55 pm by Famicom.In.My.Blood
Quote from: P on June 21, 2022, 02:31:25 pmYou did? Most TV-sets didn't even have composite inputs when the Famicom were released AFAIK, and even though the NES did come with composite output you would have to buy the cable separately (it's just two male-to-male RCA cables for video and audio though) if your TV did support it.

Our family continued to use RF through both the 8-bit and 16-bit eras, and we didn't even know what composite was until the PS1 and N64 came which did include composite cables by default (and thankfully we had a new and better TV with SCART connectors and stereo speakers to make use of it).

I think RF and composite are both fine for the Famicom/NES, but RGB is a bit too inauthentic to me and it doesn't seem to be totally problem free either, so it's a no-thank-you for me.

RGB is fine and preferred on arcade systems like the VS System, computers like MSX, consoles like SFC, Megadrive, Saturn, PS1, PS2, Dreamcast and other systems that has RGB natively. But even on some of those there are known cases when composite is basically required, especially on the Megadrive as many games uses dithering to simulate transparency, and this effect only works on composite. The SFC also has a very rare case in Hoshi no Kirby 3 that also does this despite the hardware being able to produce real transparency.

I think RGB is semi-inauthentic on the PC-Engine. It does output it natively in the expansion port (although no official peripherals makes any kind of use of it AFAIK), and an RGB option may be nice to have, but I would never sacrifice composite for RGB for many reasons. Besides that games might not be designed for RGB output in mind, there are several hardware features (like the black & white mode) which simply doesn't work with its RGB output due to how the system is made.

I'm not sure but according to Wikipedia the Twin only has composite video output (RCA), despite Japanese TV-sets with composite being very rare at the time. Also according to Wikipedia an RF-modulator for the Twin was released separately for people with only RF input in their TV.
The AV Famicom can use the same separate RF-modulator as N64 can, but that's for the MULTIOUT port found on those systems which the Twin doesn't have, so the Twin must have its own special RF-modulator. I don't think I've ever seen it.

I live in a PAL region (france) and, as far back as I can remember, my parents always had SCART RGB CRTs (not high-ends ones) with, of course, Composite inputs too.

NES I had when I was a kid was sold with a SCART Composite, then I had RGB Mega Drive 2, and then Composite N64, so it's almost the contrary than you , as N64 was a leap back for me !

I'm partially agree with you about Composite, it has definitely a charm, particularly on console who display a very good one, as Saturn VA0 or SNES Jr. Besides, as I play on BVMs, Composite is displayed in the better way possible (I suppose), as those professionals monitors have specific Composite filters, to improve picture (I don't know how it works), and, according the games, I even prefer Composite (looks more natural).

It's a very knowledgeable friend of mine who advises me and mods consoles I select for my setup. Definitely the most difficult one to choose between Composite or RGB has been Famicom, even him didn't give me an answer, but I finally chose RGB, and I set it to PlayChoice-10 colors, to have in some way the closest possible RGB colors that Nintendo wanted (I know it's not perfect).

For PC-Engine, he told me to choose RGB instantly, saying colors are really impressive on this console, and perfectly fit with the great majority of games. Even if I know, once again, it's not truly native (more than Famicom though).

But, except those two consoles, I try to keep native connections as much as possible, and even for N64, I chose N64 PAL FRA (region free) to have the closest native RGB mod (official CMS one).

The fact Twin Famicom had only Composite natively doesn't surprise me, it was sold as a premium console, far ahead basic Famicom, so Sharp perhaps supposed people who will buy it will have premium CRTs with Composite inputs for sure
I hesitated during a long time between Twin Famicom and Famicom Titler, because you can output RGB on the Titler with a native mod (so very close to a native output), but, finally, I chose Twin for its all-in-one build, and because put a NES adapter in Titler's inclined slot isn't a safe thing

By the way, what's your favorite Twin Famicom model (if you have one lol) ?

P

I see, SCART (Syndicat des Constructeurs d'Appareils Radiorécepteurs et Téléviseurs) was designed in France, so it makes sense that you got it as standard earlier than we got in Sweden (also I don't know how old our family TV was). I suspect it has something to do with PAL and SECAM, so people probably wanted a connector that allows access to the TV-set's RGB input besides composite.

RGB mods on the PC-Engine have until quite recently been doing improper colors, but since the color-mapping table inside the video color chip was dumped it is now known how to make RGB mods with the proper colors like that of the composite video output.
The black & white mode will still not work with RGB though (this is because it works by disabling the color burst in the composite video output signal but doesn't touch the RGB output signal). Unless the RGB mod has some circuitry that sniffs the expansion port and applies black & white to the signal by itself somehow whenever it senses that the black & white mode is turned on. I doubt RGB mods do that however (the HDMI adapter seem to do according to Chris Covell).

As an example of a game that uses the black & white mode is Shapeshifter when pausing the game. The image will stay in color even when pausing the game on typical RGB mods.


Heh on Nintendo 64 I use S-video, but only because my 64 isn't RGB-modded and S-video is the next best thing on it. S-video is still a very clearly noticeable improvement over composite.


Oh and I don't have a Twin Famicom, sorry.

P

Seems I was right regarding France, SCART and SECAM. I also learned that the French NES has an internal composite-to-RGB converter which is why you used a SCART cable for your NES (and an RGB one to boot).
Using the RGB cable doesn't mean it has better quality than other NES or Famicom versions though, and it's actually worse since it's just RGB converted from composite (the NES video hardware doesn't output any RGB, only composite).

boye

I'd personally go for the AN-505 if you can snag one, due to its integrated turbo controllers, (especially handy on a console with hardwired controllers) and its power LED.
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Famicom.In.My.Blood

July 03, 2022, 05:33:03 am #19 Last Edit: July 03, 2022, 01:18:31 pm by Famicom.In.My.Blood
Quote from: P on June 29, 2022, 02:07:29 pmSeems I was right regarding France, SCART and SECAM. I also learned that the French NES has an internal composite-to-RGB converter which is why you used a SCART cable for your NES (and an RGB one to boot).
Using the RGB cable doesn't mean it has better quality than other NES or Famicom versions though, and it's actually worse since it's just RGB converted from composite (the NES video hardware doesn't output any RGB, only composite).
Hum... well, I'm not sure to understand what you mean here, as I never said PAL NES had RGB, but SCART Composite. I used the official Nintendo cable sold with back then, and if the picture's quality is better than RF, I don't know if it's better than other NES/Famicom models which have Composite output too !

Globally, PAL consoles have a better RGB picture than other regions models, as it's "pure", or raw RGB (C-Sync), while others are not and need a by-pass (Master System, Mega Drive,  or SNES). Once again, I talk here for RGB consoles, not for Composite ones, because I know some NTSC consoles have better Composite picture than PAL models, as SNES Jr., or Saturn Jap VA0/1/2.

NES PAL must be avoided just because you can't make 50/60Hz mod on it (if I'm not mistaken), so you have just 50Hz in-game

Famicom.In.My.Blood

July 03, 2022, 05:41:07 am #20 Last Edit: July 03, 2022, 02:57:47 pm by Famicom.In.My.Blood
Quote from: boye on June 30, 2022, 10:36:54 amI'd personally go for the AN-505 if you can snag one, due to its integrated turbo controllers, (especially handy on a console with hardwired controllers) and its power LED.
Thanks for your answer.

To be honest, I find most of these features pretty useless, as I don't use integrated controllers, but officially licensed ones made by Hori and Hudson (far better IMO), plugged in expansion port; power LED is a good thing though.

Beyond that, I prefer the original model design, and I read here and elsewhere those Turbo models could have some reliability's issues.

P

July 03, 2022, 04:09:21 pm #21 Last Edit: July 03, 2022, 04:20:41 pm by P
Not all games supports expansion port controllers however.



Quote from: Famicom.In.My.Blood on July 03, 2022, 05:33:03 amHum... well, I'm not sure to understand what you mean here, as I never said PAL NES had RGB, but SCART Composite. I used the official Nintendo cable sold with back then, and if the picture's quality is better than RF, I don't know if it's better than other NES/Famicom models which have Composite output too !
I learned from this article that the French NES has an internal composite-to-RGB converter so that it can be used on a French TV that only supports SECAM by using RGB instead (since all French TV-sets at the time already had SCART with RGB for exactly this reason). The French NES outputs PAL composite like all other PAL NES systems do, and at the time not all French TV-sets supported PAL, while making a PPU that outputs SECAM composite video would be too expensive for Nintendo.
If you used the cable that came with the console it sounds like it was actually an RGB cable, not composite.


Was it this cable?

This connector is unique for the French NES and won't fit in any other model of the NES, nor any SFC/SNES. The composite connector on the NES is a yellow RCA (AKA "phono") jack. The French RGB cable looks very similar to the FDS RAM-Adapter cable, maybe Nintendo reused it.
Edit: Posting images doesn't seem to work.


Quote from: Famicom.In.My.Blood on July 03, 2022, 05:33:03 amGlobally, PAL consoles have a better RGB picture than other regions models, as it's "pure", or raw RGB (C-Sync), while others are not and need a by-pass (Master System, Mega Drive,  or SNES). Once again, I talk here for RGB consoles, not for Composite ones, because I know some NTSC consoles have better Composite picture than PAL models, as SNES Jr., or Saturn Jap VA0/1/2.
I'm not sure what you mean, every console is very different regarding these things. PAL SNES does actually not have c-sync since they replaced the csync pin with a +12 V to make SCART TV-sets happy (although I think it has c-sync output internally so it can probably be modded). NTSC SFC/SNES do have c-sync on most models except very late ones (1-CHIP-03 and the Jr) AFAIK.



Quote from: Famicom.In.My.Blood on July 03, 2022, 05:33:03 amNES PAL must be avoided just because you can't make 50/60Hz mod on it (if I'm not mistaken), so you have just 50Hz in-game
Yeah since PAL NES uses different CPU and PPU chips from NTSC Famicom/NES, it can't really be region-modded unless you replace the CPU, PPU, CIC (which are all custom parts and not off-the-shelf) and a bunch of other things.

But on the other hand NTSC Famicom/NES also can't be modded to PAL so the only way to play certain PAL-exclusive games is to own a PAL NES as well.