Original PAL NES Controllers on AV Famicom - Diagonal not working in Contra

[Flex]

Hi Guys! So recently me and a friend was playing Contra on my RGB modded AV Famicom however we was unable to shoot diagnoally (e.g. up and right) when using my original PAL NES Controllers but it worked just fine using the original dogbone or an 8bitdo bluetooth controller that I have.

This is the first time I have noticed a potential compatibility issue using my original controllers on games, and wondered if this was a known thing?

Are the PAL controllers somehow different? Any advice welcome.

[Skawo]

There are two kinds of PAL controllers: NES and NES-E versions.
NES-E ones work on all consoles, but the regular PAL NES ones only work on some.


See here:
https://tetrissuomi.wordpress.com/english/nes-controller-compatibility/

[P]

Hmm I think some of the information on that website might be incorrect, but now I'm not sure.
NESE-001 systems has diodes in the controller port and requires a controller with resistors (NES-004E) to work correctly but I don't think the NESE variant has anything to with PAL-A. PAL-A and PAL-B is a lockout chip thing (there is also a third PAL variant used in the Hong Kong NES and possibly other Asian PAL countries).

I heard NESE models includes German NES models (which also has a blue AC-adapter connector and uses a different AC-adapter from other NES systems) which should be PAL-B just like the Scandinavian PAL NES (which is always NES-001).
Also I thought PAL-A only included UK, Italy and Australia, and not Spain.


Finally, OT's problem is that the NES controller doesn't work with an AV Famicom, but the AV Famicom doesn't have diodes so any controller should work on it AFAIK, only NESE models requires its own specific NES-004E controllers.
So either the problem is something else or we have the wrong information of how this all works.

[Flex]

Thanks for the info. To clarify a couple of things...

The controllers are originally from a UK PAL-A region console (NES Version not Mattel to be precise) and I can confirm they are model NES-004E and I have opened one up to confirm it does indeed have the resistors.

Controllers work fine on the AV Famicom on all other games, seems to just be diagonal inputs on Contra being the issue but I will test some other games to be sure but its not like they dont work at all.

Do you think the existance of the resistors could be causing this?

[Skawo]

My controllers are also NES-E and I think they work on my AV Fami in Contra, but I'll have to check.
Would be funny (well... mostly annoying, actually) if so.

[Flex]

My controllers are also NES-E and I think they work on my AV Fami in Contra, but I'll have to check.
Would be funny (well... mostly annoying, actually) if so.

I just tried another game (1942) quickly and I definatley cannot go diagonally in that either with these controllers... I thought I would have noticed this before ... clearly not!

I would like to find a fix though... I am tempted to try removing the resistors see if it makes a difference.

[P]

I doubt that, the resistors are only supposed to make up for the protective diodes in the NESE controller ports and the 004E is supposed to be universal. Not that I've ever had a 004E controller myself, but all PAL SNES models has the same type of diode & resistor setup as NESE-001/NES-004E and my PAL SNES controllers works in my SFC but not vice versa.

I think there is something wrong with these controllers, something is shorted or something which somehow masks certain input combinations (a diagonal input is just a combination of two of the four d-pad switches both engaged simultaneously).

First, rule out any external sources of problems. Are you using some sort of extension cable or adapter? Did you get different results with the same console, same cartridge and everything else also the same but a different controller?

[krzy]

If you cant do diagonal inputs, that's because the shape of plastic part that makes the "cross" of the d-pad is not able to press two rubbers at one-time.

Nothing to do with electronics or protocol, it is just pure mechanical flaw of this controller. Either try to stick a few 4mm  x 4mm squares one on top of the other, cut from insulation tape, on bottom side of each of four wings of the d-pad or just change the pad.

[P]

What kind of flaw? I've never encountered an official NES controller that can't press diagonals, it's made to be 8-way by design.
I guess the rubber membrane is worn down or something so that the cross can't reach them from certain angles.

[Flex]

Sorry but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense as it's both controllers with the exact same issue (not one dodgy one) and are the controllers I've had since I was a child that work just fine on the PAL NES. Also individual directions are all working and it's only pressing two directions at the same time e.g. up and right there is no actual diagonal input for it to press and these directions all work fine by themselves. I also refreshed the rubber membranes etc not long ago so I will try swapping them back see if that makes any difference but can't see why it would.

I will do some more testing and report back.

[P]

You say that they still work fine on your PAL NES? That would rule out that there is any problem with the controllers, it might be the Famicom.
Unless there really is a compatibility problem with the E-model controllers that we don't know about.

If you have an adapter or flashcart that allows you to try the same games (1942 etc) on your PAL system, you could test that too.

[Skawo]

Hmm, no... I just tried my own NES-E controllers on my Famicom AV and I can press diagonals just fine.

I do recall seeing a review on some replacement membranes stating that it became impossible to press diagonals with them in place, but... if they work on the PAL NES, then logically it has to be the console, somehow.

[Flex]

OK mystery solved!! It was indeed the membranes and the controllers do the exact same thing in the PAL NES as they do in the Famicom... push em hard enough and they work.

My memory was a little fuzzy as to when I actually changed the membranes as it must have been after I got my Famicom where as I though it was before so I made an assumption they worked in the PAL NES.. my bad.

[P]

Thanks for reporting back the solution.

So it was bad membranes, or maybe they just need to be "played in" first.