PAL-N Famiclone with generic 15-pin controllers unresponsive

[sys64738]

Hi,

This is my first post here. I started to collect clones as I find the variety fascinating. I am relatively new to to NES/Famicom space. My last addition is from Argentina "SonSon Family Computer Game". It came with nothing. I connected a 10V 850mA 3rd party adapter meant for Genesis, and a pair of 15-pin generic controllers from AliExrpress. I set my TV to PAL-N. I got video and audio but no response from the controllers. What is my next move for troubleshooting? I have heard things like controllers being PAL/NTSC or region locked. Could it be the case? I have a small portable scope and a multimeter but not sure where to check. Thanks in advance.

[Skawo]

Check whether the controllers are wired up Famicom-style or Famiclone-style, because those are different, despite sharing the same plug.

https://www.nesdev.org/wiki/Controller_port_pinout
https://www.nesdev.org/wiki/Expansion_port

[sys64738]

Scope shows 60Hz for the CLK (pin 9) and OUT0 (pin 12) for the Player 1 port on the console. Does this mean it fits the general Famiclone schematics? The controller is wired to pins 1(Orange), 8(White), 9(Blue), 12(Brown), 15(Yellow) but I have no idea how to verify what standard the controller follows.

[Skawo]

EDIT:
Nevermind, it seems like the diagrams floating on the internet contradict one another, and I can't make out heads or tails of it all.
I did find this, though, which is a diagram showing how to wire up a controller to one of the Dendy clones


(looking at console port)

That seems to match what you're reading on the scope and checking the continuity on your controller.
So... hm.

I remember that I had a famiclone where the buttons of an official Hudson Joycard would only work while one of the D-Pad directions was being held. Is that the case for you?

[sys64738]

Thanks for the picture. I actually found out something else. It is weird. When both controllers connected the unit does not power on. Pin 15 on left port somehow connected to the pins 1 and 11 on the right port (when nothing is connected). Multimeter just shows direct connection. Was there ever a design like this? - Edit: I mixed the left/right ports up since the board is upside down so pins 1 and 11 on the left port shorting with pin 15 on the right port.

[Skawo]

You sure the connection between 15 and 1 isn't just a capacitor charging up?
'cause that would be a short between ground and 5v

[sys64738]

To be sure, I was measuring the voltage between pins 1 and 15. One port is +4.85V other port is -4.85. Pin 1 is 5V instead of pin 15 for one of the ports.

[Skawo]

Oh, so... they're probably mirrors of each other, then. And the pads are not, so plugging both in makes that short actually happen.

That does not appear to be standard.

[sys64738]

Thanks for all the info, I really appreciate it. I switched the polarity on one of the controllers. At least it is not  shorting now. Other pins seem to be where they are supposed to be. Still not working though. I will try to find a different controller.

[Skawo]

Might be worth tracing if the signals actually get to the 368E chips.

Might also be worth trying to add a pull up 1K resistor between 5V and CLK

[sys64738]

I will do the tracing at some point. I saw that they already put a resistor between 5V and CLK (2.2K) is that too much?

Edit: Or not enough. Here it says PAL controllers had 3.6K resistors. Not just CLK and 5V but also 5V and Latch.
https://www.nesdev.org/wiki/Standard_controller

I will do the tracing first before jumping to conclusions.

[Skawo]

In my experience 3K was too much for my Famiclones and made it so holding B inverted your D-Pad input, and only the CLK actually needed the pull-up.

But if there's a resistor already there, then I guess it's fine.

[sys64738]

This is what I gathered with the multimeter:

Left Port Pin	Left Chip Pin
1 and 11	16 (5V)
12	7
14	2
15	8 and 15 (GND)

Right Port Pin	Right Chip Pin
1	8
4	10
5	6
6	12
7	5
8	14
9	3
15	16 (5v)

P2 matches what is here: https://www.nesdev.org/Ntd_8bit.jpg
As for P1, I can only read 2 pins on the chip.

[Skawo]

Huh, so, pin 14 goes to pin 2 on the 368, which should be D0, but pin 14 isn't connected on the joypad side?

Well, uh, cross-reference the Famicom schematic with what you got by tracing out the pins on the board and also the typical famiclone controller schematic and try running some wires?

[sys64738]

I did a quick test by running the white wire (Pin 8 ) on the controller to pin 14 on the port. That did not do anything. I will investigate more.