What's with all the shit talking over at Assembler modding and Hacking section?

[famifan]

sweet 

what is the 15kHz noisy thing? jailbars?

[kyuusaku]

Which pic?

Jailbars are every 8 pixels so I don't think that's what you're seeing.

[80sFREAK]

Just a common-collector amp with 100 ohm Re for very low output impedance. Go 75 ohm if you have the current to spare and you have the ideal 1 transistor amp. (Do use a large AC coupling cap.)



Here's 470 uF coupled:

Hold on, where is 220uF?

I thought this was 44 uF but it was really 440 nF, shown for example:

Well, noone need to read after line above  If you still want to read

Well here's 22 uF:

In the previous post you told about 33uF and now toying around 22uF, what is that? Turning things up side down?

It doesn't *appear* too attenuated here, but it is (didn't bother measuring)

So "yes" or "no"?

the important thing is that the entire signal actually wobbles around Vsync which could definitely affect separation, particularly with AGC.

It's obviously, if

I thought this was 44 uF but it was really 440 nF, shown for example:

The 470 uF doesn't show any of this (neither does 220 uF).

You still missing one important point

Maybe this hasn't been the most effective exercise but at least anyone can see that there is a difference.

Nice try.

Note: if source impedance is increased (as in every mod) the effects should be worse since the source will create another time-constant. I'm not going to bother building every amp, too much time spent already.

Sounds like you realised you failed and don't want to fail one more time.

I beleieve, that you are nice guy, but please, again PLEASE, do not touch soldering iron until a) you will able to read values of components with 100% accuracy b) understand, what components are and how do they working c) don't be offended, study hard and you will rewarded.

[kyuusaku]

*Sigh* here we go again with the master of pretension...

Hold on, where is 220uF?

Do you really need a picture of 220 uF? I can still take more shots.

Well, noone need to read after line above   If you still want to read

Uhh they're two "22"  tantalum caps I found, their size suggests they could be 22 uF, without a capacitance meter how am I supposed to know?

Don't assume I have everything on hand. If you really knew about components yourself you can extrapolate information from my examples. 33% isn't much in the frequency domain, plus these caps have 10-20% tolerance themselves.

In the previous post you told about 33uF and now toying around 22uF, what is that? Turning things up side down?

I don't have any 33 uF caps, the closest I have is 22 uF. Or maybe you'd like me to waste 6x 220 uF in series to appease you?

Sounds like you realised you failed and don't want to fail one more time.

&&

I beleieve, that you are nice guy, but please, again PLEASE, do not touch soldering iron until a) you will able to read values of components with 100% accuracy b) understand, what components are and how do they working c) don't be offended, study hard and you will rewarded.

*Sigh* If only your actions matched your wisdom. Maybe you'd like to give a Fourier analysis of the FC's sync and show how little your higher impedance amp is affected by 33 uF....

I chose 100 ohm to be fair. Clearly the visible distortion doesn't bother you @ 22uF, maybe you think 33% will make a difference on a 1 pole filter...  Personally I've seen *100uF* cause sync havoc on the Neo Geo AES, and that's with a very tiny (<20 ohm) source impedance from a push-pull amplifier. How is 100 uF with a Fc of 21 Hz causing problems? High amplitude 60 Hz screen flashing effects in games--FC games do them too.

It's much easier to just say this forum is clueless and be over with it. I'm the one who first said it by the way, any others are just agreeing, no need to be hard on anyone else.

[80sFREAK]

Good, so please stay away with your theories.

/thread

[keropi]

@ kyuusaku

yes, there are some muppets at other places that did a half-assed job like you and somehow came to the conclusion that the people here are clueless...
I still haven't seen your comment on the sets I tested my machine and found working excellently, how come? Or are you just ignoring this little fact since it won't work with your theory?
Oh, and go to the other places to see shots of the Philips + 37LH4000 sets. Somehow clueless persons produce the better results.

[famifan]

Which pic?

Jailbars are every 8 pixels so I don't think that's what you're seeing.

they are on every pic except on 440n

[kyuusaku]

@ kyuusaku

yes, there are some muppets at other places that did a half-assed job like you and somehow came to the conclusion that the people here are clueless...

Half assed job like me? What in the world are you talking about? I never constructed 80sFREAK's amp, I didn't have to build it to see its flaws and talk shit about it. What I constructed here isn't meant to be a work of art, I wired in some components point-to-point to demonstrate the signals. I understand basic amplifier topologies enough to know that what I constructed already has better performance than *any* FC A/V mod proposed online and that is why this community is a joke for technical insight... Try to be a little open minded, tone down the bromance and not focus on sides.

Also really?? I seem to recall you valuing my assistance on ASSEMbler numerous times regarding your PCE RGB amp, oh and your N64 RGB amp... Guess those were just more wasted keystrokes.

I still haven't seen your comment on the sets I tested my machine and found working excellently, how come? Or are you just ignoring this little fact since it won't work with your theory?

I have no idea what circuits your TVs contain (I haven't even heard of many of the brands!) and it's irrelevant. The standard termination for consumer baseband video signals is 75 ohms to ground. You can look it up. The fact is that most TVs, especially newer ones like yours, are very forgiving. And yeah, a lot of your TVs certainly do have digital signal processing which has been widespread in CRTs since the mid 90s.

Just because you THINK something works doesn't mean it does. Perhaps your eyes will lead you to believe you have a "perfect" amp since it works on 50 out of 50 TVs and 100 out of 100 FC games, but as soon as you come across an edge case you'll know the truth; the PPU generates a really shitty video signal so a TV will probably lose sync before you can visually distinguish an anomaly.

There's no question 33 uF causes the signal to droop, it's apparent in the 22 uF picture. What maybe isn't apparent to you, because I haven't uploaded the video, is that Vsync makes the entire signal wobble due to insufficient coupling. I tested a 100 uF cap and there's still too much wobble!

So I've defended my position plenty, I have and can gather more evidence to support my claims but any more time on this subject is seriously an exercise in futility. If you want to learn more, read video amplifier datasheets, I'm sure some of them will explain why they all suggest 220 or 470 uF coupling caps. 80sFREAK without any evidence of his own to bring WISHES I were disingenuous, but at this point he's got his trollface on--something he resorts to in practically every discussion we're both involved in.

BTW, the people at ASSEMbler are predominantly clueless too. Feelings less hurt?

they are on every pic except on 440n

I think you're talking about the overshoot. Part of that is really there, part is exaggerated by my unideal 75 ohm probing solution and improper source termination.

Edit: If you mean during Vsync, those little pulses are colorburst! The PPU strangely doesn't shut it off for the front and back porches

[80sFREAK]

Sounds like "cool modders" and "genius designers" so badly wants to know "what's inside of the cat". Nothing special, just one stage amplifier.

kyuusaku, you are still here? Geez, looks like you enjoying your butthurt

[keropi]

[...]
Also really?? I seem to recall you valuing my assistance on ASSEMbler numerous times regarding your PCE RGB amp, oh and your N64 RGB amp... Guess those were just more wasted keystrokes.

Yes, in a sense they were.
Apart from the n64 modification that the original modder got me confused, the PCE RGB amp was a huge failure.
I and everyone that offered help wasted our time. Like this amp here, there was some pretty words about how amps "should work"  and how 73x4 is better than the transistor-based amp. The result after 1 month of having my pce gutted and with orders of TI chips and resistors/caps was something INFERIOR than the transistor amp that you people bashed.
Guess what? Several other people on dedicated PCE forums lol'ed pretty hard with the assembler thread. You were quick to prove the old amp a piece of crap but somehow noone dared make the "correct" one that was superior.

I have an open mind, I always want to try new things but when all that "science" produces is an inferior but "correct" solution then sorry: I'll pass. Same thing you are doing here. There is a perfectly working solution that only fails when others with questionable skills construct it. The thing works from ultra-cheap OEM tv sets to LG/Sony ones. Yet you are somehow not satisfied.
OK I can understand that, perhaps there is a different and better solution. Then you go ahead and make some scope readings which is nice. But not with the mod you are claiming to be crap. That's half-assed to me , sorry.
What I would really like to see is when you and everyone else that knows his stuff come and give a complete, proven and correct solution, be it a PCE 73x4 amp or a superior famicom one. Something that works and is jailbar free. Not something that people need to turn down brightness to hide bars. 80sFreak with his "wrong" way does not need any tricks, either prove him wrong with a better/equal solution or just stop.

And I was never ungrateful to anyone that helped me, just go look on the assembler threads. I didn't even say a word when the 7314 amp was mediocre after spending time/money on it. Everyone helped from the good of their hearts and that was awesome. And I'll thank you again in the future should you give me any help on a problem I have, I am not a petty man. But that doesn't mean that because you helped me once I am not entitled to a different opinion especially when I have something right before my eyes that looks great.  That's what I came not to like on assembler, the constant bashing of other works that sometimes just don't deserve it. And I am not talking about you on this one... you have proven to be miles better than those I talk about by just writing here - no matter what the outcome was.

[kyuusaku]

Guess what? Several other people on dedicated PCE forums lol'ed pretty hard with the assembler thread.

Have you ever noticed that lazy and ignorant people mock those who try and attempt intelligent discussion?

You were quick to prove the old amp a piece of crap but somehow noone dared make the "correct" one that was superior.

You try designing a discrete DC coupled amplifier... It's not easy, that's why I didn't post anything at the time. Every FC amplifier we're talking about here is EXTREMELY simple since it does not have voltage gain, it's basically the same thing as your beloved inefficient PCE amp. That's the main reason this discussion is so retarded--fan boys to dead simple circuits, most of which don't make any sense.

Same thing you are doing here. There is a perfectly working solution that only fails when others with questionable skills construct it.

80sFREAK's part choices have failed for numerous people, and I have shown why. You're being delusional, there's little question they built the circuit "correctly"--there are only 4 parts and apart from switching resistors there's no way they could build the circuit wrong and still see ANY video.

OK I can understand that, perhaps there is a different and better solution. Then you go ahead and make some scope readings which is nice. But not with the mod you are claiming to be crap.

Once again you don't understand, I did scope readings with an amp BETTER than the one I'm claiming to be crap. I didn't have the 33 uF capacitor which is an obscure value. Tests with a 100 uF cap show the same problem. The whole point wasn't to build 80sFREAK's circuit, it was to show the high-pass filter effect to famifan.

is jailbar free

Jailbars have NOTHING to do with the video amp. At best the video amp can only hide them by filtering them, intentionally or unintentionally.

when I have something right before my eyes that looks great.

You are being a petty man here--defending to the death something that you don't understand, just because it's what you have invested in. As I already explained FC video amplifiers will all "look great" because 1) all of the amps in use are basically the same concept 2) the PPU output is very different from normal video, there are so few brightness levels you'd never notice 3) TVs do they best the can to fix many of the problems with bad amplifier circuits.

a superior famicom one

Here's a parting gift:



-3 components
-75 ohm source
-high linearity
-minimal Vsync distortion

The downside? It consumes 60 mA instead of 15 mA like the ideal amplifier. Similar to the other amplifiers it also delivers the wrong amplitude.

Simple enough for you 80sFREAK?

[80sFREAK]

Gosh, kyuusaku, please, stop it, your butthurt will burn our planet 

Stop freaking out locals by this nonsence, draw complete equivalent circuit. It will help you. Your theories are nice, but not complete to be correct.

I'm getting boring of this "battle"