Famicom Disk System Bootlegs and Forgeries

Started by P, June 21, 2022, 01:59:29 pm

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P

June 21, 2022, 01:59:29 pm Last Edit: June 29, 2022, 12:52:24 pm by P
A continuation of the discussion in this thread.
Edit: Seems the original thread was deleted. Doesn't really matter, it was a thread about forgery of FDS obi, cases and rewriting services that bought up this subject.


One problem with Famicom Disk System disks is that they are fully writable, and ever since people discovered how to write over them there are no longer a way to guarantee that a disk is factory written unless it's sealed (and perhaps not even in that case).

Being able to rewrite them isn't really a bad thing in itself, they are magnetic and will eventually fall to data rot as they loose their magnetic orientation. Rewriting the disk with its original data is the only way to restore such a disk, given that the original data had been backed up before it went corrupt, not all versions of every FDS disk has been dumped however (that large Nintendo leak some time ago only contained the latest version of every game, as that was what Nintendo had archived).

If we ignore all the problems with seemingly perfect forgeries, there is still a reoccurring problem that disks written on one disk drive doesn't seem to be readable on other drives that otherwise can read factory written disks, so why is that?

One reason Nintendo chose the quickdisk technology for their Disk System was probably the very affordable price compared to conventional floppy disk drives at the time which were very pricey. But this cheaper price tag came with another price. Supposedly the quickdisk technology is much more error prone than more conventional forms of FDD technology because of the single-spiral track that the QD format uses, a screw pulls the head while the disk is spun by the motor (normal FDDs uses a stepper motor which are very reliable at making uniformly distanced steps).
This is a cheap and simple system, but is also more demanding as it requires that the drive that writes the disk is correctly aligned in the centre. Most people seems to just adjust it until games starts to work and then leave it like that. Even if it's a bit off centre it may read properly written disks, but if you write disks with a drive like that they may be too much off centre for another drive that is aligned too much off centre in the other direction.

And this is a common problem since virtually all stock drive belts have melted at this point, every working disk drive has had its belt replaced and is potentially incorrectly aligned. Then people write new disks with these drives which results in a disk that will work on about 50% of drives depending on in which direction they are off centre in.

Nintendo probably had a good way to make the factory calibration correctly but I'm not sure if that method is known. It probably involves those markings on the spindle and the plastic cogs which a lot of people ignore.

portnoyd

That was a great post. I knew about the problem of having drive A write a disk and drive B and C being unable to read it, but now I know why.

Knowing about disk rewriting and how easy it is, I've written off on ever knowing if the data is factory. To be fair, with the diskwriter kiosks from back in the day, a lot of factory data is long gone anyway.

I would say half my disks error code in the 20s. Part of me wants to write working data on there, the other half says this is part of FDS life, leave it as a relic of an era and to just use my FDSstick.  The calibration issue mapped out in P's post makes me want to stay towards the latter.

At least the ones I have that do work have save data that leans toward original. I was playing Murasame Castle over the weekend (why the hell did they put next to no healing in this game) and there were 3 Japanese names in the save slots which was neat to see. Then I deleted one and put my friend ClawX's name in the slot to start my own save. RIP video game history

P

Half of what I wrote in my post is just what others more technical people have told me and half of it is my own conclusions of the situation based on this knowledge.
I feel like this is a subject that is very hard to find good and accurate information about and should be discussed more often.


It's easy to tell if a disk has been in the Disk Writer, (if the current understanding is correct) the Disk Writer recorded the rewrite count in the header of the disk itself, and any disk that were sold as a pre-written disk would have the rewrite count as 0.

Disks rewritten in a basement will of course not have these fields updated correctly (and can technically have any numbers written here), but at least it makes it easy to tell if the game on a disk is a Disk Writer or pre-written version.


It's hard to tell if your disk drive is poorly aligned, the disks themselves are ones that have been rewritten on a poorly aligned drive or if there is some other problem with the disk. Error 20 is the most common error and basically seems to just mean that reading the disk didn't work as it should for some reason.

Heh I don't know if I would care as much about a previous owner's data as I do about the game itself. I usually just delete it to make it factory fresh again (though that's not always possible with Famicom Disk System disks). But I suppose we might not be saying that in another 50 years or so. When someone in the future discovers data from the '80s or so on a floppy or memory card it may be regarded a precious part of history, like a tiny window back to how the world was like when the game was new and the first owner had just beaten the game before eventually selling it to Bookoff or whatever.


Anyway, I think the main problem we have to solve is to learn how a disk drive is properly factory calibrated and teach it to people. EricJ's website has the best guide as far as I can tell, but I'm not sure how adequate it is.

FDS-Hungry


Lukān

Quote from: P on June 21, 2022, 01:59:29 pm[...] It probably involves those markings on the spindle and the plastic cogs which a lot of people ignore.

I recently replaced the belt on my FDS. I purchased it a few years back from a seller in Japan who had already replaced the belt. (I guess those new belts are "indestructible" like they claim but can still become stretched enough to slip and cause errors  :-[ )

The video guide I followed on Youtube to perform the repair did involve positioning that off-center hole on the cog so that when you twist the sort of tri-pointed metal piece back over it, the hole on the cog lines up with the off-center hole on the metal tri-point piece. Later, the guide has you loosen the spindle and instead of just doing tiny adjustments and checking until it works, you rotate that hole on the cog so that it's aligned with a strut on the tri-point piece opposite of the side with the hole you originally aligned it to, and then tighten the spindle again.

The FDS didn't work on my first attempt, but it took very little adjustment from there (ultimately I kept the hole aligned with that strut) and it was back in working order again. It seems to even load games faster than it did when it first arrived from Japan! Now I'm tempted to get a second FDS unit once I can successfully rewrite two of my disks that have the wrong games on them, and see if this particular method helps with the compatibility issue with "home-written" disks.
ひかりのせんし

Bro3256

I feel like FDS collecting turned into collecting for the labels and cover art instead of the actual games. You can buy a cheap disk with no label on it and rewrite it with practically any game you can think of that released on Disk System. Sure it probably won't match 1:1 with a rewritten copy from the factory nor the Disk Writer but it's close enough that a playable rewritten disk from today plays identically to one rewritten decades ago, so at that point you might as well either get an FDS Stick or focus on trying to get physical copies that have the labels and covers of the written game. I don't think rewriting old disks now is inherently wrong, especially if you're trying to restore a game's contents that were lost but I do think that detail needs to be mentioned if lets say you plan on selling that disk.

Skawo

November 25, 2022, 03:37:14 am #6 Last Edit: November 25, 2022, 04:14:48 am by Skawo
Quote from: Lukān on November 24, 2022, 07:51:41 pmNow I'm tempted to get a second FDS unit once I can successfully rewrite two of my disks that have the wrong games on them, and see if this particular method helps with the compatibility issue with "home-written" disks.

Sorry, it doesn't; that video's method is not correct and only gets it 'close enough', and then only on *some* drives. The proper method is described here in the "Spindle adjustment" section. If the drive doesn't read disks after that, then something else is mismatched: either the motor speed or the head screw.

Lukān

Quote from: Skawo on November 25, 2022, 03:37:14 am[...]
Sorry, it doesn't; that video's method is not correct and only gets it 'close enough', and then only on *some* drives. The proper method is described here in the "Spindle adjustment" section. If the drive doesn't read disks after that, then something else is mismatched: either the motor speed or the head screw.

I appreciate the heads up and the link! I definitely like any calibration methods that give you specific positions/visual queues to line up with rather than simply loosening the spindle hub, adjusting by a few microns, checking, and repeating until you finally get a game to load reliably and just hope you aren't taking the longer way around!

I was a little bummed to see at the end, however, that even that particular method mentions a possibility of having to make repeated micro adjustments if a known working disk still doesn't work after using that method. It does mention having to do this for games written on a misaligned system, but doesn't seem to explicitly state that the micro adjustments are only necessary for those particular disks, unless I'm misunderstanding. Making any adjustments after the fact seems like it would potentially still leave you with differently aligned systems and possibly the same incompatibility issue with privately re-written disks.

Either way, I tend to enjoy tinkering with and repairing these devices about as much as I do playing games on them, so I may still look into getting a second FDS some day to compare these methods with each other. Thanks again for the food for thought! :)
ひかりのせんし

portnoyd

Quote from: Bro3256 on November 25, 2022, 02:51:15 amI feel like FDS collecting turned into collecting for the labels and cover art instead of the actual games. You can buy a cheap disk with no label on it and rewrite it with practically any game you can think of that released on Disk System. Sure it probably won't match 1:1 with a rewritten copy from the factory nor the Disk Writer but it's close enough that a playable rewritten disk from today plays identically to one rewritten decades ago, so at that point you might as well either get an FDS Stick or focus on trying to get physical copies that have the labels and covers of the written game. I don't think rewriting old disks now is inherently wrong, especially if you're trying to restore a game's contents that were lost but I do think that detail needs to be mentioned if lets say you plan on selling that disk.

Unfortunately, it has, as collecting FDS has the unique problem of getting a game that works on your specific FDS. I have most of the FDS library and maybe half of them work on my FDS, and that includes ones that were listed as working. Some of which had pictures of the game working in the listing!

I've just come to accept it and like you said, just collect the physical object. If I want to play it, the FDSstick is there. I have played through Murasame's Castle (well.. almost, needed to snort blood pressure meds just to get through the next to last level just to tap out on the last) and Eggerland on disk but it sure is dicey. Whenever that drive kicks on, you never know if it's going to Error you out. Eggerland crapped out when I had the flip the disk for the last boss lol - luckily a few rereads got it to kick over.

As a moron who lapped up FDS games, I personally don't care if they are rewritten, original or not working. Since my FDS may reject it regardless, I only care if the object itself is original, which is the original subject of this thread and the now-gone one that spawned this one. For reference, that thread was a sale thread of someone selling reproduction disks and inserts and the issues that arise when a user can make pitch perfect dupes.

Skawo

Personally, I've been exceptionally lucky, somehow, and all 61 disks* I currently own were perfectly readable, even re-written ones, on all the drives I own.

As for repro art, I do make the insert and sleeve for the loose disks, but since I don't have original FDS cases for them, I use 8cm DVD cases instead. The disk fits in perfectly, is fully protected, but the art has to be in a completely different format than the originals, which obviously makes it clear it's a reproduction. Sadly, those cases are starting to get hard to source now, as well :s

* With one exception of a disk that was physically damaged, but that one still technically read a couple times.