is the Famicom the same as the NES?

[Bro3256]

Recently one of my mutual friends created a video that briefly went over the differences between the Famicom, Disk System, and NES. I'm partially responsible for the creation of said video as a running joke in my friend group is seeing people mix-up the Famicom and NES as if it were the same exact thing, which depending on the context can be deceiving (stuff like the NES releasing in 1983 for example).

I have to ask though, is anyone else bothered by this? Granted this is a pretty trivial thing to begin with but when it comes to documentation and learning about these systems, I feel like there hasn't been a very clear line drawn as to what we consider a video game platform to be. Does it have to be running on the same hardware? Do we have to use specific names and terms? Of course in casual conversation I don't think a lot of people really care and that's fine, but personally I am in the belief that the mix-up has resulted in a lot of misinformation being spread and I feel like the Famicom and Disk System are the best examples of that.

That's just my silly opinion though. 

[Skawo]

I firmly believe the Famicom and the NES are the indeed same thing, just in different regions. The same hardware in another box.

The video poses a few reasons why they aren't, such as that because they need "a third party adapter" to run games from the other region. First off, it's not a third party thing - there exist first party adapters just like it - early NES games shipped with a Famicom board plugged into one.

Secondly, if we argue that needing an adapter to play a game makes it a different platform, then the Super Famicom is also not the same thing as the Super NES, nor are Japanese N64s the same thing as US N64s.

If we argue that the existence of a disk system attachment which wasn't released overseas makes it different platform, then what about the 64DD? What about the Satellaview? Note: the FDS very much *is* a different platform from the NES, but just the same as it is a different platform from the Famicom.

Name being different makes them different platforms? Again, Super Famicom - Super NES. Mega Drive - Genesis. Turbografx 16 - PC Engine. Etc. etc.

Different controllers makes it a different platform? Then the Atari 7800 in the US and Europe are a different thing. Different controller wiring makes it a different platform? Well, the PAL NES controllers and US NES controllers aren't compatible, either.

[Ghegs]

Yes, they're the same system, just a different region. You could call the NES a later, regional variant of the Famicom.

I would say the adapter thing is a point towards the fact that IS the same system - because the adapter is so simple a device technically. It's basically just a pass-through port, it doesn't do anything beyond that. It's not like the SNES' Super Game Boy that actually contains Game Boy components within it to allow GB games to be played on a SNES.

Well, the PAL NES controllers and US NES controllers aren't compatible, either.

It's actually a bit more complex than that.

[P]

Yes they are definitely the same console, just different regional variants of it. So of course not exactly the same thing but still the same "console" or "platform" that runs the same games.

Like others already said, we don't call it another console just because it has different looks or region lockout, even if the lockout is in the form of a different cartridge standard (many other consoles does this too without anyone blinking including PC-Engine, Mega Drive, SFC and Nintendo 64). You might as well call the Japanese Playstation a different console from other regional variants of it since CDs from other regions doesn't work on it without a modchip or other lockout bypass method.

Hardware-wise the NTSC NES is identical to the Famicom save for a few minor modifications: a different cartridge slot, different controller ports (and some chips that adds a few additional pins to them, plus the microphone is removed), a larger expansion port and the lockout chip. The PAL NES is a bit different since it uses a different CPU, PPU and master clock (and the lockout chip has other lock codes for each variant of the PAL NES). But I think even this is a regional variant of the same console and is partly compatible with the games for the NTSC variants, many games were released unmodified after all. The same goes for most Famiclones.

That said, I think you are absolutely right that you should be aware of the differences (at least the practical ones, although the technical ones are nice to know for the nerdy) when discussing it. Depending on the context it may or may not matter. For example when talking about a game like Super Mario Bros (released in all regions AFAIK) the name of the console is seldom important. Since this is Famicom World we prefer to say "Famicom" in such situations, but on Nesdev it's more common to say "NES" when talking about the console in general without going into regional peculiarities.


Finally about the Famicom Disk System, I don't really get why people think it is a different console. The RAM Adapter is fundamentally just a cartridge that is able to load data from external QD floppies. It doesn't even add much more than RAM, VRAM mirroring control and a new audio chip.
The FDS is thus just an external disk drive for the Famicom and that's it. Buying an FDS for a Famicom is like buying a CD-ROM² for a PC-Engine or a Mega CD for a Mega Drive.
I guess you could say that the Famicom + FDS setup is kind of its own platform since it's a required combination of hardware to play games for it, but people don't seem to use this terminology for other hardware requirements. For example RAM upgrades for computers and consoles like the Saturn and Nintendo 64 which is required by some games, so I'm just really confused why this is such an important detail. To me it's just a more expensive accessory required by a good number of games, not really enough to talk about a whole different platform.

[Jedi Master Baiter]

It's actually a bit more complex than that.

I never knew about this issue! Are the Zappers different as well?

[Bro3256]

I would say the adapter thing is a point towards the fact that IS the same system - because the adapter is so simple a device technically. It's basically just a pass-through port, it doesn't do anything beyond that.

Sure while an adapter can let you play NES games on Famicom or Famicom games on NES, incompatibilities can still crop up. What about oddly shaped Famicom cartridges that can't easily fit in a frontloader NES? Okay then get a toploader, but then what about the lack of the Famicom expansion port? Do I also need to get an adapter to account for that too?
I do agree that the core hardware is identical, but calling both systems identical overall is confusing when you have to account for a lot of the quirks with both systems.
But does that also mean I think for example a Japanese N64 is completely different to a North American N64? No cause the differences between both are so small that they're merely foot notes to keep and mind, not to mention that the identity of the N64 is universal which I can't really say the same for the Famicom and NES. It's not enough to call it a completely different console but I feel its substantial enough that drawing a line is necessary.

[Ghegs]

This really does sound more like confusion over terminology and context, than anything else.

If you say "NES is the same system as the Famicom", I would agree. But if you say "NES is identical to the Famicom", I would disagree. The latter, to me at least, implies a more technical look into the matter, while the former is a more casual, gaming-focused discussion. It's the same system, but different model.

Likewise, I would say that the Playstation 2 Slim is the same system as the Playstation 2, despite their hardware being quite different, but not that they're identical. Again, same system, different model. Consoles have been getting new models during their lifetime since the beginning, and it's still continuing today, but they're still considered "the same system" because they play the same games.

Nobody's disputing that the physical devices have their differences at the hardware level. At the same time, they're pretty minor in the grand scheme of things, and a person who just wants to play Famicom games on their NES (or vice versa) probably won't even notice, they'll just happily use the adapter.

If you want to get absolutely, strictly technical about it, then the AV Famicom isn't the same system as the Famicom, as its controllers aren't hard-wired, it's lacking the microphone in controller 2 (which actually makes some games unplayable), and there's the difference in video output.

And then your mind will explode when you start to look into the different Sega Genesis / Mega Drive models and how their video and audio quality differs from each other, and how some games can't be played, or some peripherals can't be used, on certain models.

[P]

Exactly my thought, if you want to go on discussing that the Famicom and the NES are not the same thing you would first have to define "same thing". I don't see that they are much more different than SFC and SNES or regional variants of the N64, neither can take cartridges from the wrong region. It's basically just the controllers, looks and the name of the system that differs between Famicom and NES.

It's actually a bit more complex than that.

I never knew about this issue! Are the Zappers different as well?

I'm not sure since all my NES stuff are Scandinavian (PAL-B, SCN) which is non-E, meaning it's missing the diodes just like NTSC NES and AV Famicom. But I think a non-E Zapper shouldn't work on E-type systems. I do know that the E-type Four Score has the diodes like the E-type NES controller port has, which means the E-type Four Score requires NESE-004 controllers even if used on an NTSC or Scandinavian NES.
The AC-adapter is also different and not interchangeable.

That article says that it is PAL-A NES systems that are E-type, I've been under the impression that it was non-Scandinavian PAL-B systems (such as the German NES).


BTW the PAL SNES has the same problem, diodes on controller port not found on NTSC systems which means PAL SNES requires PAL SNES controllers (while SFC and NTSC SNES can use any controller). This time it's universal for all PAL systems however, there are no PAL-A or PAL-B SNES systems, just PAL SNES.

[adori_12]

This really does sound more like confusion over terminology and context, than anything else.

If you say "NES is the same system as the Famicom", I would agree. But if you say "NES is identical to the Famicom", I would disagree. The latter, to me at least, implies a more technical look into the matter, while the former is a more casual, gaming-focused discussion. It's the same system, but different model.

Totally. I've watched Akfamilyhome's videos before and I like his works, but this one is a bit misleading and not very helpful at claryifing what a Famicom and an NES are. If I had to answer the question, it would depend on the person, but for most it would be "Yes, they're only regional variants", only giving more details if I'm talking to someone who cares about obsolete gaming systems. Not to mention the majority wouldn't even realize the NES has a different version overseas (or viceversa for Japanese), so I don't know the target audience for that video. People informed enough to know about the Famicom, the Disk System, the NES, but not enough to realize that the NES, a system that plays the same games, released in the same period, has the same company behind it, and is nearly identical power and architecture wise to the Famicom, is not a Famicom? I higly doubt someone watching it would be convinced about his arguments.

I assume he legitimately wanted to make things as clear as possible, but I guess that's what happens when you try to answer a question that is totally up to oneself's judging and points of view. You'd have to explain what "the same" is to you like most of you said.

[fcgamer]

They are totally different things. Only a small portion of games intersect between the NES and the FC, so if someone were to pick out good NES games, it's hard, as a lot of the library is shit compared to the FC.

[P]

Even two Famicoms with different board versions are different things and one may have incompatibility with games that the other doesn't and vice versa. If you don't want to define "thing" you make no sense at all and the discussion is pointless.

[portnoyd]

Definitely a subjective thing, as this thread can attest to.

The NES and FC belong to the same genus but are different species. A lot of similar stuff under the hood but not exactly the same. You can make a case that the 8 bit Nintendo is the family, the NES, FC, bootleg systems, NOAC and so on are their own genus and they have their own species (like the US NES having the standard toaster as well as the top loader; the FC and the AV FC, etc).

I guess it depends on how you define "same" lol.

[adori_12]

It seems people answer depending on how much they like the Famicom. If you like both iterations or don't really care, it's the same thing. If you prefer the Famicom, you'll say it's different to make itself distance from its ugly, oversized, inferior, boring or whatever pejorative you prefer that is the NES.
My problem with this approach is that you don't defend the idea of the consoles being different based on their functionality or something, but instead based solely on preference, and that should be out of the question in a topic like this. 
Perhaps "generally the same thing, specifically not" would be a shorter way to put it? Assuming "thing" is "a separate and distinct individual quality, fact, idea, or usually entity" and not just "an object".