School...sucks

[Agent X]

Truthfully, I hated school from day one.  I'm an unconventional person who naturally absorbs knowledge from any and all points in various media... but I learn in a slightly delayed process, and generally if I'm interested in the subject at hand, I'll of course excel much better.  But I knew from as early as the 2nd Grade, School Sucks.  Even then, I saw it for what it was, and that's that the system basically takes any and all individuals and strips them of any individual thought, only provides answers to questions that's within a set curriculum, and that curriculum isn't necessarily about EDUCATING the respective student, as much as it's about PROCESSING that person into a standard that outside of specific "specialty" careers, is really a waste of time.  I remember being the kid who did mathematics backwards and never had to carry ones or anything, but since I didn't show my work... it was wrong.  Later during Algebra classes I'd often times (not always) simply look at an equation and know the final answer, but it was counted as wrong because the real answer was showing the work and how one arrived at the answer, to which I'd say:

"Like I give a rats ass!  If the answer is ______ then that's that."

Thus I look at the so called educative system as a big joke, but I'm going to forever be in the minority on that topic.  The people with Masters Degrees and PHDs get the respect and the money, but a good deal (not all) lack even a smidgen of *common sense* that outside of their fields doesn't mean jack.  But what can you do.  My wife between her and I is the Master's Degree holder (a top kick Librarian in Elementary School, teacher before that), and she admits that preparing children to take a series of SCANTRON multiple choice tests really isn't education as much as how I define it... which is processing.  I think a good deal of the problems that many students have is that the educative system isn't itself based in reality.  Not everyone is going to be college/university material... not everyone who wants to go into a trade should do so and probably would be better off in college, etc, etc.  But the mantra today is to let any who can't be reached past a certain point fall through the cracks and promote a collegiate lifestyle for everyone, and when many can't do it... what happens to them?  They end up tomorrow's criminals and/or  disgruntle citizens, most likely in a position where they'll be in a generational tradition of poverty and government handouts. 

I'll never understand why from Junior High School (Middle School) onward classes aren't set up in the manner college is set up.  Where the student picks their scholastic courses of study and then they are encouraged to continue in an area they will most likely be both economically viable in as an adult, and where there isn't penalties for not being "as good" at something as the next student in another area?  Instead,  there's TEST A and TEST B, and if one can't do it, that person might even be a genius (I'm supposed to be an "eccentric" one, but I couldn't care less, ain't doing me no good if I can't access it when I want to or be recognized by those with degrees) because society dismisses them.  I've known hobos with more education and life experience than some professors teaching shit they know very little (if anything at all) about.

So I'm on board for "School Sucks".  Damn glad after I left the 12th grade and a brief stint in college I walked away.  I'll never be rich, but the whole set up is a joke.  If one is fortunate enough to be in a high playing field of endeavor, hey more power to them, and GOD Speed... but overall, people would be better off studying at their own pace, and actually going out and living life and getting life experience.  I mean, I get ragged on by my wife because here she is the Master's Degree holder and recognized professional, but once she attained that status, she stopped learning.  Has no interest in educative programming, reading books both non fiction and fiction, has a limited vocabulary (heh, and she's the Librarian) and I'm just the opposite.  Forever absorbing books, making friends with people who are recognized "experts" in their fields and actually getting their education for free as I get schooled on the parts I don't understand.  But society will never change it's present course and the world of idiocracy is the future in the long run.  Because often it's the most educated that don't see the point in continuing their education outside of respective curriculums, and it's they that are supposed to be walking the point and setting the examples.

Oh well.

Yeah... School Sucks!  Damn glad I don't have to go back
and probably couldn't be paid enough to go back either.   

[son_ov_hades]

I'll just say I disagree completely. You have an incredibly cynical view on education, no offense.

[JC]

Education has trended in the wrong direction, more testing, more software programs for career selection...a lot of it is just the sham of human management: How do we get these youngsters to be "good citizens" who labor on behalf of an economy?

I also agree that life experience is much more significant that than hearing lectures -- and life experience can include research, of course. I have spent the last two years of my life engaged in community work for my municipal government...I'm learning stuff no civics or public administration class could ever teach me.

On the downside, as you say, my life experience isn't worth as much as the piece of paper I'd get upon graduating with a Master's or what have you.

[ericj]

George Carlin on education and the elite HERE.

[manuel]

Agent X and JC are dead on with this.
Today, (life) experience isn't worth as much as a stupid little slip of paper that says that you can read books and write reports well.

[Mindfreak]

I'm home-schooled...

SAVE ME!!!

[Agent X]

I'll just say I disagree completely. You have an incredibly cynical view on education, no offense.

Not trying to offend you or anyone else here, just saying my piece on it is all there son_ov_hades.  Apparently both JC and manuel see where I was going with my post.  I'm not for abolishing the education system, nor am I saying a centralized schooling system isn't needed.  But the manner in which it is ran needs to be seriously overhauled, re tweaked and set into motion.  Everyone is concerned with "appearances" instead of integrity and a desire to comprehend and apply that absorbed knowledge into a viable method of operations anchored in common sense.  I wouldn't want say a guy who flips burgers at a Mickey Dees performing brain surgery on me or anyone else, but at the same time, not everything should be about the credentials that do little more than say (seriously here)

"Hey look at me, I went to such and such school and now you should recognize me, oh alumni of similar schools if not the same school.  I put myself in debt for the recognition, now give me a job, and screw that other guy who might actually be smarter than me and possibly a better fit.  But fuck that guy, he/she didn't put themselves in debt, didn't sit through equally boring lectures in classes I didn't myself want to attend, so here I am."

That's it in a nut shell.  And again, outside of *specialty*  careers that would demand a super high criteria of expertise, most of what gets taught in the public school systems is rarely used on a daily basis.  Therefore it would be more beneficial if the school systems actually focused on what the respective student felt they were truly interested in doing career wise by the time they hit the 7th grade.  And let's face it... while most aren't mature enough to be rock solid on something, most of us know by thirteen or fourteen what interests us.  So while I am indeed a cynic, it has it's impetus from the idiocy of over educated fellows who think their shit don't stink and likely (I've been personally persecuted numerous times in this manner) are either appalled, or intimidated by those of us out here who might have dynamic personalities on top of the ability to be quick learners to a specific task.  And therefore the ones who don't "put in their dues" as they see it, aren't going to get their foot in the door simply because How dare they!  I had a pretty good position for about 5 months back in '99 in a marketing position.  The person who hired me loved my off the wall/unconventional (I called it "Guerrilla Marketing") approach to things, completely negating like half of what was taught in most business schools, and applied my own high context personality into the high context in a low context (business curriculum terms 101) society that is the US, and made things work.  Prospective clients became clients, things got done.

Then that guy left and the second in command who took over (and whom always hated my guts) made sure I was the first to go, because in his opinion, and I respect him to this day for at least articulating as such to me and not being a back stabbing little shit.. well in his words:  "I didn't go through SIX YEARS of business school at a major university to be bested by someone of the likes of you! Hit the road guy!"  ---So I did.  2 years later that dude and all his cronies who got in the door through sheer nepotism were done for themselves.  They had the credentials, but didn't have the personality nor the forward "out the box" thinking that only comes with life experience and taking chances in unconventional means.  So I guess it's things like this that make me a little (no a lot) cynical towards our so called educative system.  At least as far as the United States is concerned.  But I do have my issues with countries like Japan, where the pressure is so damn great it's not uncommon for a kid to jump off a building, slit their wrists down the road, hang themselves or whatever in a suicidal end.  In that respect, I find it hilarious (in a dark way) that over there the whole "Bushido" thing gets tossed around the corporate world, where Sokaiya Yakuza racketeers mess up shareholders meetings until paid to leave... blackmail is like the #3 trade amongst colleagues... ridiculous porn is birthed... and more, yet at the same time the society as a whole is told to walk the line and deal with things.  Even stranger is how anyone who's done enough studying on Japan (since it's always touted as being damn near perfect by the media) knows that without guys like Yoshio Kodama, Kazuo Taoka and other underworld types, the post WW2 Japan wouldn't even exist, and to this day their own government (The Diet) is about as corrupt if not moreso than George Dubya's 8 year reign put together.

But everyone is striving towards more scholastic tests that prove little to nothing at all.  When you read a text book from say the 1950s or 1960s versus today, you'll see that modern Political Correctness has marred any serious ability to teach a person how to absorb and utilize in a practical manner that very issue at hand.  Essay tests where one has to explain the gist of the topic at hand proves mastery of a subject, either it totality or how that person applies it to themselves in society.  Both are right, but what everyone wants is economically viable spokes on a wheel.  And for that I guess it's why I feel School Sucks overall.  I know personally I'll work my ass off the rest of my life, but that's alright, I'd rather do that and have procured knowledge where I could get it and actually KNOW something, than to have processed it and forgot it.  But that's just me bro (can I call you bro?)  I meant no offense to anyone here, and I can see where my own POV on this might ruffle some feathers, but that's just how I see it, have been effected by it and have in certain cases Triumphed over it.  Of course if the shoe doesn't fit anyone here, don't bother wearing it.

[son_ov_hades]

It seems what you have a problem with is the college system. I agree that they charge outrageous prices and whatnot, but the college system is necessary in this country. You can't maintain a 14 trillion dollar GDP, being the richest country in the world by far, without a majority higher educated workforce. Industries like financial services, which do no actual production make up a huge part of our GDP. That industry would fall apart with C students running it, look at it's current state.

As for the impracticality of school subjects, that shows a clear misunderstanding of educational philosophy. Education is there to teach the content, yes. I think it's quite important that students understand the American Revolution for instance. However, at their core schools are there to provide students with the skills to become functional members of society. No one outside of "specialty" careers needs to know about molecular biology, but subjects like that teach skills like observation, experimentation, problem solving etc. These are all things that are damn important to being a functioning member of society.   

[nintendodork]

I don't wanna have to pay $400 for a parking spot that I *might* get.

[Agent X]

It seems what you have a problem with is the college system. I agree that they charge outrageous prices and whatnot, but the college system is necessary in this country. You can't maintain a 14 trillion dollar GDP, being the richest country in the world by far, without a majority higher educated workforce. Industries like financial services, which do no actual production make up a huge part of our GDP. That industry would fall apart with C students running it, look at it's current state.

No one outside of "specialty" careers needs to know about molecular biology, but subjects like that teach skills like observation, experimentation, problem solving etc. These are all things that are damn important to being a functioning member of society.   

#1) Yeah you're probably right on this note.  I do think however, that the college curriculum style would be more beneficial at an early age/scholastic level though.  Get people motivated in the right direction much earlier and actually help them along into securing that position and/or dream job, rather an across the board thing where the individual may or may not become disenfranchised with the whole setup and possibly either dropout or tune out any instruction beyond a certain point at a subconscious level they aren't even aware they are doing.  ***No argument about needing our youth of tomorrow to be able to compete with other industrialized nations, but at the same time, I'd rather have people from here who actually want to move into *specific* career positions (as specialists/experts) get the furthered attention they need and be properly cultivated into being that, than say for a kind of "everyone has to have THIS MUCH and then can forget it if they don't like it." type setup.

#2) Well this is somewhat debatable.  I mean, you don't need to take Biology courses of study in order to know how to properly "observe" things.  Though I do admit that a lot of what is taught in those courses is indeed "interesting" and good to know to make one overall well rounded.  But (and I'm speaking for me here, no one else) things like biology interest me more when I have the time to devote to the subject and not feel HAMMERED within a time constraint to basically memorize the course and pass a series of tests that say I had the right to pass onto the next level/grade etc... only to not be able to tell you jack about it say three years down the road.  This is what I've seen with most people.  They knew the subject at the time, but unless they did go into a field where they'd constantly use it, they never really knew it.  But you are right sir, the varying subjects are indeed *needed*, I just don't like the standardized method that allows only those who may learn in that method excel whereas anyone who may be just as smart (and in most cases are), just don't make the grade because their are a numbers of ways the sensorium of human thought absorbs and process the information.  I guess that's my real gripe.  School is only for those who can be amongst the collective and anyone who thinks differently, or learns in a delayed manner basically might as well leave school and become a hobo, or wait until they're old enough to churn out porn flicks cause their cock or pussy will be the only thing to get them serious moola outside of working crappy retail jobs.

I personally got lucky due to being able to use my gift of gab, and eventually learning how my own mind worked at one point working with a psychologist who discovered that I learn with the subconscious mind which is kind of like a latent image on celluloid film, versus the average person who learns with the "conscious" brain immediately.  But even I will admit, after having been in an Armed Security Enforcement capacity for almost twelve years and doing a number of other jobs (all that I liked) I'm at a point burned out.  I've got the personality and the ability with OJT to be as good as the next worker, but without that piece of paper, forget it.  Guys/Gals like me cannot show scholastic mastery through the normal means, tests have to either be verbal or essay based.  Multiple Choice only short circuits the brain, even when it should be more than obvious, but that has more to do with IN THE REAL WORLD, there is always the unconventional variable approach that might be the best answer to a problem (in anything), and a test would have you believe in absolutes, which outside of making sure to not mix elements/chemicals and such on a periodic table, just isn't true.  But the professionals aren't going to make concessions for anything other than "the standard approach".  Heck in college I discovered (4) problems on a test that I proved several times over was absolute bullshit, even taking the cluster fuck to the dean... did they change the test so that the problem was corrected?  NOPE, almost twelve years later I understand that test is still administered, in spite of those known problems (trick questions, none of the answers being logical at all) because of the very reason the dean told me back in '97.  "You're absolutely right son, but no one is going to change it because it's FOUR problems!  With that attitude it's no wonder that principles went out the window in favor of convenience factor, and why should the youth coming up really give a damn about anything?  Especially when the government itself (as it stands) wants to proliferate a "you're rewarded for doing nothing" mantra.  Yep, so I can lose 3 months of salary (where I work my ass off) to pay for some condom leak out there who mooches off the government, does little and probably slings drugs somewhere on a corner.  He gets my and probably Your money, but if we do it right... we get penalized or find out we're over qualified if not over eligible for things we should have a right to.     

Alas I'm rambling now.  We're both right, and you make some damn good points sir.  But I don't think I'll ever respect the education system as it exists currently, nor how society as a whole (at least here in the States) seems to penalize those of us with solid work ethics and gives cookies to people who should be out there doing it right as well.  To me this begins #1 in the home, and #2 at the school level.  When everything is about "appearances" from day one, well to me, it's off to a horrible start from the get go, and at best you have a society of so/so people.

[son_ov_hades]

Ah okay, i think we've cleared this up a bit. I agree that the system needs work, but unfortunately change really only comes with a new generation. It's very rare that a 20 year veteran teacher will change anything unless it will lose them their job. At least we(those in the education field) are trying to improve. Increasing awareness and strategies about cultural differences, learning disabilities, emotional disabilities, diseases etc. are given more focus and implementation today than ever before.

I think we agree more than I originally thought. This is a good debate though. 

[shoggoth80]

School doesn't always suck. It depends on what you have for a class load.
I like being in school. If I could, I would be a perpetual student.... best way to avoid paying off student loans...EVER... just don't stop being a student, officially.
The only thing that I have run across that I officially dislike, is Calculus. It's interesting, but it is soooo different to me it isn't even funny. Also, I don't have the greatest faith in my professor. I like the guy, as a person, but I think his teaching methods are a little lacking. We also move at a fast pace, which bothers me. Usually, I have no problems grasping something, and running with it.... but this is the hardest friggin' math I have ever had to do, and sometimes I feel a little left in the lurch.
Aside from times like that, I rather like school. Just too bad that I am going to have to pay all of this back eventually... I have a pretty large chunk of student loan debt... and it's only going to grow for the next couple of years.

[manuel]

When I was little I really liked school.
Towards the end I didn't like it as much, but I never hated it.

[Heavenly36]

Yah try working for eleven hours a day when your homeschooled!!!!

really boring!!!!

mod edit: don't double post.  If you already have the last post in the thread, use the button to modify your post instead of making a new post.

[nintendodork]

When I was little I really liked school.
Towards the end I didn't like it as much, but I never hated it.

Same here, I don't like school now, but I don't hate it.  As a younger kid though, I loved it.