A little confused about spindle adjustment tutorials?

[Phosphora]

I know these are probably stupid questions, but any clarification would be nice.

I replaced the belt on an FDS for the first time today, and found that it only read a few of my working disks and mostly gave off error 22 or 27 so I decided to adjust the spindle. I found that on this drive when I rotated the gears until it clicked in place that the spindle location was not as far back as seen in most the photos. So I just kept on rotating after the click until the spindle was as far back as it could be. I loosened the grub screw and all that, but it I really don't understand why you need to align the flat side of the spindle surround? The darn thing just rotates freely when the system is running and I don't see how the system would know which direction the flat side is pointing at all or why it should matter? I can understand how the height would greatly affect how the drive works, but not at all the direction of the screw placement (flat side). Seems to me that loosening that screw is for height adjustment only and/or to remove it and adjust the disk locking-pin height. I do hope that somebody here can explain what I'm missing?

Also, was there a reason my drive clicked into place at the wrong point to begin with?
Another problem I'm having is that  the drive is making a mix of a clicking + friction noise at the spindle, not the gears. does that mean that the little pin on the spindle hub surround is not set high enough? sometimes (maybe one out of ten) the spindle is not clicking and the disks will play.

[Frank_fjs]

I believe  that when everything is in position for the disk to be read, the flat side of the spindle has to be facing a certain direction. I have no idea why this is or how this works, but it definitely has an effect as until I adjusted mine correctly disks would not read.

Re your other problem, sounds like yours might be sitting a little too high if there are friction noises.

You might find that you need to slightly adjust the motor speed too. I had a unit that was reading disks about 80% of the time, and no amount of spindle adjustment would improve this, but after slowing the motor down a tiny bit it worked flawlessly every time.

[Phosphora]

I believe  that when everything is in position for the disk to be read, the flat side of the spindle has to be facing a certain direction. I have no idea why this is or how this works, but it definitely has an effect as until I adjusted mine correctly disks would not read.

Re your other problem, sounds like yours might be sitting a little too high if there are friction noises.

You might find that you need to slightly adjust the motor speed too. I had a unit that was reading disks about 80% of the time, and no amount of spindle adjustment would improve this, but after slowing the motor down a tiny bit it worked flawlessly every time.

The spindle was as low as it could go at factory settings. I think the friction noise is the rotating spindle against the disk, and the clicking being the spindle pin being too low and clicking against the disk's pin hole instead of locking into it. It's getting late, But I'll raise the spindle pin tomorrow. My honest opinion and guess about the loosening and redirecting the flat screw direction is all voo-doo, and coincidentally is either lowering the spindle surround or the most likely situation that the grommet screw had become a little bit loose after time or even possibly that the spindle was not located correctly like mine from a possible prior belt replacement and by winding the drive by hand into the click position you fixed the problem completely before you even started adjusting the grommet screw direction at all.

There is no scientific or technical reason why the screw direction matters (that I am aware of), and also the drive cover was made so that you could have free space to tighten the screw without having to remove the cover at all.


Thanks for the tip on the drive speed. I'd love to be able to calibrate all of mine to speed-5, but I don't own a copy master disk.

[ericj]

Since the disk is read in a spiral pattern, the starting position in relation to the read head as determined by the hub is very important. A few degrees off and it will throw errors. If the disks were written in a random access sector pattern like most disk drives, this wouldn't matter. Unfortunately, with FDS disks it does, and I assure you that it isn't voodoo. 

If there was a good guide as to how to properly align the gears/weighted spindle, this wouldn't matter. Since there isn't, the adjustment has to be made on the hub itself, unless you happen to get lucky and it actually rests where the set screw indent in the spindle is located. The height is also important, but this can be determined by looking at the set screw indent on the spindle.

If Xious truly had something documented on how to properly do this, it would be really helpful. Since he wanted to service drives himself, or never had the documentation to begin with, we'll never know unless someone else has all the drive revisions and wants to figure it out and share.

[Phosphora]

Since the disk is read in a spiral pattern, the starting position in relation to the read head as determined by the hub is very important. A few degrees off and it will throw errors. If the disks were written in a random access sector pattern like most disk drives, this wouldn't matter. Unfortunately, with FDS disks it does, and I assure you that it isn't voodoo.  

If there was a good guide as to how to properly align the gears/weighted spindle, this wouldn't matter. Since there isn't, the adjustment has to be made on the hub itself, unless you happen to get lucky and it actually rests where the set screw indent in the spindle is located. The height is also important, but this can be determined by looking at the set screw indent on the spindle.

If Xious truly had something documented on how to properly do this, it would be really helpful. Since he wanted to service drives himself, or never had the documentation to begin with, we'll never know unless someone else has all the drive revisions and wants to figure it out and share.

Yeah, I didn't want to throw any insults towards Xious but I'm sure he knows all the secrets. What I'm saying is that once you loosen the hub screw and it is free spinning, it is not changing the spindle position at all, just the spindle pin position starting point. You change the spindle position itself by rotating the gears without loosening the grommet screw.
I guess your saying that it has been dumb luck that by having the flat side of the spindle surround facing a certain direction that it catches the spindle pin more easily? Both plausible and possible, but raising the spindle pin by a hair sounds like a better solution if the spindle pin happens to be the problem (and I'm sure it is a common problem, the clicking being the spindle pin and not the gears at all). My spindle was very mispositioned and yet it played games if the spindle pin would catch.

I'm guessing that I just revealed Xious' secret.

[ericj]

The hub pin position is what rotates the disk media and determines it's start point. Sounds like a bunch of bullshit, I know, but after testing it out I know that it is important.

It's especially important if you're writing disks, since disks written on a FDS with a malpositioned hub will only play back on the FDS it was written on.

[Phosphora]

The hub pin position is what rotates the disk media and determines it's start point. Sounds like a bunch of bullshit, I know, but after testing it out I know that it is important.

It's especially important if you're writing disks, since disks written on a FDS with a malpositioned hub will only play back on the FDS it was written on.

I highly doubt that the miniscule amount that consists of less than a complete 360 degree turn on the spindle hub can cause significant reading issues with a drive that has a raised pin considering that most working drives don't have the perfect hub position shown in tutorials
I follow what you're saying about a mispositioned spindle, but loosening a grommet screw to slide the spindle hub around is not changing the spindle position in any way shape or form besides the hub surround pin position. I'll play around with it more tomorrow.
There's no Voo-Doo or magic as you say, which means it's either the pin position, pin height, or a combination of both. My drive with both a greatly off-center spindle and spindle hub would read disks fine if the pin would catch, and it had nothing to do with official or pirate disks that were never written on that particular drive. I can see the issue you mentioned arising by writing disks on a drive with a poorly positioned spindle, but a bad spindle or hub position has less to do with reading disks written on a good spindle from what I can tell. If the issue is the hub pin position starting point, I hope that can be clarified in future tutorials because nothing else makes sense (because I believe the issue is the spindle hub's pin height). I mean if a spindle that's 1/4" off can read commercial disks fine *if* the spindle hub pin catches, the pin adjustment should be mentioned for those that don't play home-made pirate disks in which it seems to matter much more.

Play with the Hub's pin height, it makes much more sense then trying to find the magic catching position that works because the pin is clearly a little too low. If my drive with such a displaced spindle and terribly misaligned hub can play games *if* the spindle pin catches, that does also mean that the spindle pin height is VERY important. Trying to find the best position for a low spindle pin to work by rotating it instead of rasing it up is like using a band-aid to fix a gunshot wound.

[ericj]

If the height is off, the disk media either won't be in contact with the read head or it won't spin the disk at all. Remember that the thickness of the pressure pad is also important to ensure the disk is touching the read head.

And I never said that you're changing the position of the spindle, but rather the hub (with the pin) that turns the disk and positions the disk media in relation to the read head. I think maybe we're not using the terms in the same way. Either way, report back with what you find out tomorrow, I'm interested to hear.

[Phosphora]

If the height is off, the disk media either won't be in contact with the read head or it won't spin the disk at all. Remember that the thickness of the pressure pad is also important to ensure the disk is touching the read head.

And I never said that you're changing the position of the spindle, but rather the hub (with the pin) that turns the disk and positions the disk media in relation to the read head. I think maybe we're not using the terms in the same way. Either way, report back with what you find out tomorrow, I'm interested to hear.

NP, I'm just upset having to deal with a troublesome drive. I apologize if you felt I was attacking you, because you and I both know that you have helped me out in the past. I just really want to know what the technical problem is and how to solve it.

[Phosphora]

i am going to cook popcorn...

Just being honest. There's a huge difference between inventing a new product and preserving your trade-mark/copyright  than withholding valuable info on somebody else's product design that you had nothing to do with at all, yet can help others in the "community" that you call friends. What If I was the first person that discovered the need for oil changes on cars? Do I just watch my pocketbook grow as the as the people and country around me suffer because all of their vehicles break down? If I have the knowledge and share it, do I still not get business from people that can't do it on their own? For every other game console that I know of, all mods are explained on the internet yet there is still a healthy business for them to be done for others.  Jiffy Lube, EZ-Lube & Pep-Boys wouldn't still be in business if otherwise. Whether you want S-Video on your Atari 2600 or you simply want a working FDS drive, the majority of people will pay to have the job done even if there is an option to do it themselves. There is no trademark on FDS repairs, just greed withholding people from being able to do it themselves. EricJ is not one of these people.

[80sFREAK]

i am going to cook popcorn...

Just being honest. There's a huge difference between inventing a new product and preserving your trade-mark/copyright  than withholding valuable info on somebody else's product design that you had nothing to do with at all, yet can help others in the "community" that you call friends. What If I was the first person that discovered the need for oil changes on cars? Do I just watch my pocketbook grow as the as the people and country around me suffer because all of their vehicles break down? If I have the knowledge and share it, do I still not get business from people that can't do it on their own? For every other game console that I know of, all mods are explained on the internet yet there is still a healthy business for them to be done for others.  Jiffy Lube, EZ-Lube & Pep-Boys wouldn't still be in business if otherwise. Whether you want S-Video on your Atari 2600 or you simply want a working FDS drive, the majority of people will pay to have the job done even if there is an option to do it themselves.

Well, you are right. On other side i shared knowleges about AV mod and got some shit... Popcorn almost ready, i will be back shortly

[Phosphora]

Well, you are right. On other side i shared knowleges about AV mod and got some shit... Popcorn almost ready, i will be back shortly

Bring it on, about time there is some freakin' honesty with the folks that should be your friends and comrades .

Nothing to see here folks, definitely don't learn about adjusting the pin height on your spindle's hub! The cash cow can be ruined!

[ericj]

No worries, Phosphora. I get where you're coming from. It's frustrating to mess with FDS drives.

I agree with releasing information if you have it, which is one of the reasons I made my site in the first place. I did get some shit from a few people who thought that I shouldn't release how to rewrite disks, but there are always people who like to keep things exclusive. It's only a hobby for me since I already have a 40+ hour/week job, and I have nowhere even come close to breaking even with what I've spent, so it's definitely not about the money. 

So, if anyone has some good information on how to properly calibrate the drives, I'd love to hear it. What I understand about it is based on my own experience on my particular drive revisions.

[80sFREAK]

Ok, let's begin...

2 Phosphora just curious, why did you touched spindle from beginning?

Since the disk is read in a spiral pattern, the starting position in relation to the read head as determined by the hub is very important.

Nope.

so it's definitely not about the money.

correct.

[Phosphora]

Ok, let's begin...

2 Phosphora just curious, why did you touched spindle from beginning?

Since the disk is read in a spiral pattern, the starting position in relation to the read head as determined by the hub is very important.

Nope.

so it's definitely not about the money.

correct.

I don't quite get what you're saying. I recently sold my wonderful working drive (that I bought from you) because I had an old broken drive with a rotten belt and wanted to fix it. After fixing the belt, it would read only a few games out of my collection when all of them have been verified as working, and thus this topic was started. Maybe your post wasn't directed at me? The drive I'm working on is not the one you sold me.