Reproductions vs. Counterfeits/Bootlegs

Started by nerdynebraskan, October 29, 2013, 10:02:00 am

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gr3yh47

October 30, 2013, 09:23:21 am #15 Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 09:28:50 am by gr3yh47
Quote from: L___E___T on October 30, 2013, 09:14:56 am
What isn't fair in my opinion, is withholding the benefit of the doubt for me people like me who have repros and don't whore them out with any of that corruption.  I have repros for my own enjoyment only.

I make my own labels for them and use real shells, but I don't care to put 'reproduction' on the cartridge or anything like that, I think it's ugly.  I do however make differences that you would see easily.


Because some folks think they might be corrupt and make forgeries?  I don't see why i should change my honest behaviour to conform with that, what happened to innocent until guilty?


Thank you for saying what I've been trying to say, better than I could say it :p


Edit:

QuoteThat said, flaunting a repro of a common game as 'rare' here was an invite for trouble.

Quoteflaunting a repro of a common game as 'rare'

Quotea repro of a common game

Quotecommon game


wut   ._.

edit 2: now I broke the word common. it looks weird.

L___E___T

Maybe not common, but it's not limited run and it's not rare really, just very very wanted.
My for Sale / Trade thread
http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=9423.msg133828#msg133828
大事なのは、オチに至るまでの積み重ねなのです。

fcgamer

Quote from: L___E___T on October 30, 2013, 09:14:56 am

So yes, NA is a torrid mess of this stuff, but people want it, so why shouldn't they be able to enjoy a cartridge of something like Recca without paying through the teeth? 
Because some folks think they might be corrupt and make forgeries?  I don't see why i should change my honest behaviour to conform with that, what happened to innocent until guilty?

It seems to me the only people this tends to really upset are collectors, who spend loads on a game and are afraid of it being devalued.  Plus a few folks that don't do their research and overpay for something in a hurry.  If you buy a thousand dollar game that is at that price because the demand vs. supply situation, you can't complain when the supply changes.  These games shouldn't just be available to the wealthy.
Free markets are free markets, if you buy an expensive game, be prepared it won't always be expensive.  If Gimmick was easy to repro with all the sound channels, the price wouldn't be so high.



I remember as a child going to an American Civil War museum and gift shop, and I bought a set of shiny Confederate coins for my collection.  On the coins themselves though, were the words "Copy" in small print.  Yes, this is (imo) a bit unsightly, but at the same time, it is understandable why it is done, and I wish more people were to put this into practice with these games.

As I had mentioned earlier, it seems as though the majority of these so-called repro makers are not fully honest about what they are selling, and that can cause major problems for collectors and people who are researching games.  As an example, some Color Dreams games were published for the Famicom in certain regions, officially.  No one ever seems to be sure exactly of which titles exist, and if any others exist.  Now Joe Smith might easily put Secret Scout or Operation Secret Storm on a Famicom cartridge for his own jollies, and then he eventually sells the thing.  The game is then sold for a semi-high price, and people can't research it further, because there just isn't information about it out there.  And Joe, who is either a greedy git or an honest seller that fears that his auction will be removed, doesn't say a word that he made the game.  The game sells for a high price, and then the new owner is stuck trying to figure out just exactly what it is, that he has.  Maybe he is able to determine that it is a repro, and then he feels cheated, or maybe he feels that it is not a repro and is authentic, but then this wrong information gets passed around the internet.  Either way, it is not a good outcome.

As for collectors and the repro thing:  In my opinion, no one has any right to say that repros are okay, until he or she has a horse in the game.  I am not rich by any means, but I just have low rent to pay, and besides by girlfriend, I just have little to spend my money on.  Sure, I should save more than I do, but I only have a few larger puchases to make until I finish my collection, so the full force saving will probably start next year.  My point though, is that I am just an average guy, but I have spent upwards of $500 - $600 USD for certain games in my collection; there are only a few of these gems though.  But if we discuss $100 - $200 games, suddenly I have spent more for them.  When I spend that kind of money on a game for my collection, it certainly does matter what other people are doing, concerning the value of my game.  While I could care less if I can sell the game for $10 or $1000, I do care that the game is known to be a legitimate copy of the game, a legitimate box, a legitimate manual, etc.  And all of these modern counterfeits, or repros, take away from that, steal that away from me. 

People want to reprint boxes for some unlicensed Famicom games.  I saw an unlicensed game with box and manual for FC that tonight sold for just shy of $200; with only the game cartridge, the game would have sold for $10 - $15 tops.  When I have spent my hard earned money to take the extra time and effort to purchase these boxes, or to track down and purchase the original cartridges, it certainly does matter when a bigger force comes in that could ruin the value and call into question the authenticy of my items.  That is a big problem.

If people want to play the games so much, just buy a flash cart, or do like I do and save up for the game.  There was one game I saved up for, for a period of 3 months, but it felt good when the game finally arrived.  Sure, some of the prices are crazy, but there are certainly other options available for gamers, than just to pirate the games at will, while making them look terribly authentic.  Sure, I might not have my priorities in order, when it comes to funds, spending, and my gaming collection, but at the same time, the person that goes out to a fancy dinner once or twice a week probably spends a lot of cash too, so it should all be looked at in perspective.

Post Merge: October 30, 2013, 11:04:29 am

Quote from: L___E___T on October 30, 2013, 09:14:56 am
Haha, NintendoAge include repros in their database now?  That is wholly laughable, that's made my day  :)



Yeah they are in the database, and I think that some of them even have rarities attributed to them, something which I had called into question, but without much success.
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L___E___T

October 30, 2013, 11:41:05 am #18 Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 11:46:42 am by L___E___T
To be honest, so much of NA is a joke these days, anything goes there.  I read the magazine, but even some of the recent information in there is weird.

Thing is, I get what you're saying, but I like repros myself exactly because it means I don't have to track down a copy of a thousand dollar cart.  
If I had that kind of money to spend, I would.  These days I just don't.  Having said that, I have spent big money on the past on loose games and on handbills, when I could have found a cheaper solution.

I will get round to getting those carts one day but for now repros have to do.  Yes I have them on a flashcart, but it's not the same.



It's a tricky topic because everyone has a different sense of priorities.  
For you, the historical cataloging is paramount, for others fighting corruption is paramount, and for others still finding a cheap cart is paramount.  
I don't think anyone's personal priority should be politically imposed on other gamers or the retro gaming scene, even if it was possible to (which it isn't).

If someone was palming off repros as real genuine legit items I certainly wouldn't spare them any mercy - but whenever I've seen that happen there's always been plenty of comeuppance for the corrupt seller in focus, big time.

The thing is, you say you dislike people making boxes because this means you have to spend more - but how is that different from the gamers who don't like a lack of repros because they then have to spend more?
Isn't it pretty similar?  You could say to them 'play on an emulator', but then could they say to you 'catalogue images, not physical boxes' - is that pretty similar too?  It's not the same but I think there are parallels.

I think this is a healthy discussion and I'm not going to shy away from stating my personal opinion on it.  People tend to like or dislike repros when money comes into it, which exactly why they are here to stay, for better or worse.

To take the shiny coin analogy - that does happen - look at Nintendo's Game & Watch Ball repros, or the Love Tester repro.  Heck these are official repros folks, it's ok for Nintendo to do it but not for DIY enthusiasts?

I include notable differences on my repros, which are very easy to spot beside the fact they don't look new and clearly have a home made label on them.  
Yes it's tricky when you have convincing GBA bootlegs, but there are always ways to safeguard buying a bootleg or repro, so I don't buy that these are the evil of retro gaming, I see them as the equivalent of an aftermarket classic car that you actually want to drive around affordably, because you don't have hundreds of thousands for a real one.  
I don't think you need to own a very expensive item to have a valid opinion on this, everyone's opinion is valid so long as it's informed.  Having said that I do have a horse in the stable so to speak.
My for Sale / Trade thread
http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=9423.msg133828#msg133828
大事なのは、オチに至るまでの積み重ねなのです。

nerdynebraskan

October 30, 2013, 03:39:01 pm #19 Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 01:55:21 pm by nerdynebraskan
Lots going on here...

fcgamer,

1) I also exempt homebrew games from any kind of repro cart criticism. I'd be really into the Battle Kid games, if they didn't have save-state difficulty.

2) I would be reluctant to label all repros "fan-made bootlegs." I guess the most basic definitions of bootleg in this context do only refer to an unauthorized copy, which would apply here. But in copyright-specific references, even on Wikipedia, this form of bootlegging is explicitly made synonymous with counterfeiting. Obviously fan translations, unreleased prototypes, and hack sequels don't qualify as counterfeit because there is no conventionally-released version for them to be imitating. Selling home-made knockoffs of Earthbound, on the other hand, is counterfeiting. I would prefer to see every repro sold either marked on the label as "reproduction" or bear the logo of the maker; I think repro/reproduction is a bit more of a neutral label in this scene.

3) I agree that there are definite opportunities to sell repros for huge amounts on places like Ebay, just by neglecting to call them repros. I'll admit I paid too much for my first repro, dropping $40 on the 'Bay for a Super Mario 2J. I just didn't know where else to buy them at that time; luckily, the seller was a major repro maker who was basically selling on Ebay only slightly higher than he would on his own site (to offset Ebay's fees). It's easy for knowledgeable nerds on a gaming message board to tease the ignorant and gullible for paying $100 for a common Bio Force Ape repro, but I think the burden of a crime is not on those who are willing to trust, but on those who are willing to abuse that trust. The possibilities for fraud are much worse for anyone unethical enough to build, say, a Dinosaur Peak repro and put an original looking label on it. Not only is that a textbook case of fraud, but it breeds paranoia around anyone who would ever buy or sell a legit copy and that's just not fair.

4) I don't generally see much merit in making repro versions of non-US NES/FC action games, either. I don't really understand why someone would pay $25 for a repro of Dig Dug, when you can get an original FC version for $10 and it'll work perfectly fine on the adapter yanked out of a Gyromite cart. I don't see a lot of gaming or artistic merit in reproducing games like that, with few exceptions.

I'm kind of conflicted on the merit of reproducing extremely rare things like the Sachen games. Two of the only three Famicom action games I have repros of are the Korean originals Buzz & Waldog (AKA Koko Adventure) and Metal Force. It was less about me being cheap and more about me having serious doubts that I'd ever find one if/when I had the money to afford one. I'd been considering a Rocman X repro, when you showed up here with an extra. I got lucky, there. But I guess if one turned up in my price range sometime, I could always upgrade to a legit copy, right?

I also have a Recca repro, which is also kind of a curious case. I don't have an original cart, but I'd like to get one someday. But it's still very convenient that this repro has been hacked to allow all of the gameplay options upfront. As I understand it, you have to beat the main game on an original cart to unlock these special features every time you want to use them. So in a way my repro is actually a kind of enhanced version, and I don't know if I'd get rid of it if/when I get a legit copy of Recca.

5) The whole "limited edition" thing is incredibly lame. That drives prices up on some of these even very common games into three digits, and that's just a matter of gouging the collectors with completionist impulses. Again, I don't like seeing people get taken advantage of because they're passionate for a hobby.

6) I don't see any repros in Nintendo Age's NES database. Where are they posted?

7) I'm definitely in agreement with your criticisms of duplicating boxes and manuals, since those can be especially hard to distinguish from originals. Those of us who collect originals are in this for the admittedly irrational joy of feeling the history of the item (whatever it is) in our hands. When we can't be sure we're holding a true original, or whether some jerk printed a bunch of fake copies to rip us off, it really sucks this joy out of our hobby. That's a big reason why counterfeiting this stuff upsets me. The integrity of the hobby is more important to me than the value of my collection.

8) For anyone who cares, I'm pretty much in the same position as fcgamer financially. I'm not wealthy by any means; this is just pretty much the only hobby I throw money at.

L_E_T,

1) I don't have the same kind of opposition to you owning bootlegs for personal use. Your single copies aren't really part of this chaos, and you're not profiting from this chaos. Sadly, many of the potential buyers for them are not so trustworthy, which is why the major repro sellers don't make them for anybody. And I would agree with them that this is the best policy.

2) I don't think vintage gaming should be limited to those with thousands of dollars to spend on their hobby, either. I'm glad there are so many ways for people to play these things, and most of them are vastly less expensive than buying original copies: PC emulation, hacked Dreamcasts/X-Boxes/Wiis, Famiclone pirates, and flash carts. In fact, original copies are still pretty inexpensive for about 80% of the libraries of most vintage systems. Originals are typically only stupidly expensive for the very rare items.

3) Earthbound is kind of an unusual case in this regard. Nintendo Age rates the Earthbound cart as a Rarity-4 (Common), on their ten-point scale. And this honestly sounds about right. If you go to Ebay on any given day, there are about 50 copies for sale. With most $100+ NES/SNES carts, you're lucky to see five copies for sale at any given time.

4) I suppose I would summarize our main disagreement this way: I don't believe we're simply entitled to every game we want, either. (This is like the flip-side of the coin from #2.) Obviously everyone on this forum gets a great deal of satisfaction out of video gaming, but as has been stated all over this thread there are many ways to enjoy any given Nintendo game.

I will never own a gold Nintendo World Championships cart. I'll probably never own a box or manual for my copy of Dinosaur Peak. I may not ever buy a US version of Little Samson, since I've got a legit PAL NES copy and I can't believe how expensive that game has become. (I've basically resigned myself to the fate that I'll only get an American Samson via thrift store/yard sale miracle.) But you know what? This is all ok. I can still play all of these games, and that's the most important thing. (One of my buddies in town has the NWC repro.)
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gr3yh47

October 31, 2013, 05:29:07 am #20 Last Edit: November 01, 2013, 04:23:42 am by gr3yh47
Quote
L_E_T,
1) I don't have the same kind of opposition to you owning bootlegs for personal use. Your single copies aren't really part of this chaos, and you're not profiting from this chaos.


someone has to make it for he and I to buy it....

Quote
Sadly, many of the potential buyers for them are not so trustworthy, which is why the major repro sellers don't make them for anybody. And I would agree with them that this is the best policy


overgeneralizing. Saying most potential buyers of 1:1 repros are fraudsters is a really baseless claim. In any case the original reply's disdain was directed toward the poster here who clearly stated it's a repro. There's nothing wrong with this thread. People who want to commit fraud will find a way to do so, but this is akin to an argument of 'ban cars cause some people drink and drive'

QuoteI can still play all of these games, and that's the most important thing. (One of my buddies in town has the NWC repro.)


fraud is wrong, but THIS is exactly why straight reproductions are fine.... if you can't afford the real thing, sometimes it is nice to have a real cart of a reproduction of it.

nerdynebraskan

Your formatting is a mess, gray, but I think I understand your comments.

You can think I'm over-generalizing about the potential for fraud all you like, but it has become a major problem within the gaming collectors' scene. NES and SNES bootlegs are not needed for gamers to enjoy the games, so why make and sell one to someone you don't know when they could easily turn and throw it on Ebay to scam a collector? It's not worth the trouble, and luckily the major repro makers already agree with me on this.

Your desire for an Earthbound bootleg (at least hypothetically, given your continued defenses of the one in the OP) doesn't closely compare to my ability to enjoy an NWC repro. The Nintendo World Championships cart was never released commercially in any region; original carts are closer in quantity to prototypes than they are to any truly distributed games. And the game's many options and settings were installed as hardware (dipswitches on the cart) rather than software (in-game menus), which makes recreating it properly on a flash cart practically impossible. I'd probably never actually own even a repro of it, but I have been considering repros of some of Nintendo's Vs. series (which were only originally released as arcade cabinets, and which also use dipswitches).

If you really want an Earthbound cart, just save up and buy a real one. From your other posts here, it is clear that you prefer original hardware and you've got some money to spend on it. If it's not a priority for your collection, let it go. It's not a really rare game; people do still find them at thrift stores and yard sales occasionally. Maybe you'll score one for next-to-nothing.
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gr3yh47

Fixed the formatting. not sure why that happened.

but look, i'm not defending exact copy repros. I'm defending copy repros with a label that no one would mistake for the original.

And sure, copy bootlegs are a problem in the collector scene, but that doesnt justify your assumption that most of the people who would buy this would try to rip people off (especially since the label is different...). EVEN if that were true, that doesnt make the seller (who is honest) wrong. So your argument against this cart being sold in this manner is really weak.


yakuza

Quote from: MasterDisk on November 01, 2013, 07:58:23 am
How 'bout you guys let yakuza sell his stuff without this giant argument going on?
I'm impressed it's already 2 pages long, many have posted (mods too) and no member or mod has done a thing.


lol....... hahaha  that's alright ...

gr3yh47

Quote from: MasterDisk on November 01, 2013, 07:58:23 am
How 'bout you guys let yakuza sell his stuff without this giant argument going on?
I'm impressed it's already 2 pages long, many have posted (mods too) and no member or mod has done a thing.


this was basically my point the entire time, why hate on this guy's thread for some moral point about repros that isn't really applicable here.

fcgamer

Earthbound is overrated, quite simple.  Nothing too cool about that cart, imo.

Regarding Mario World, nice cart, but are you sure that is the full version?  I thought the full version was only available on the 45 in 1 multicart...
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nerdynebraskan

@MD

I haven't "done a thing" because there's nothing I can do about this bootleg, besides make a case for why it shouldn't be tolerated here or any other collector's forum or marketplace.

@gray

I have never said that "most" potential buyers of this Earthbound bootleg are just out to make a buck off of it by duping a collector. I have certainly not accused you, or anyone else on this forum who may be sympathetic to these counterfeits, of being out to scam with these.

My position, once again, is that the potential for fraud here is not just great. It has also been demonstrated across many scams over the past few years. This potential for fraud vastly outweighs the entitlement of a penny-pinching collector, who wants original-ish carts of everything but isn't willing to pay the premiums.

Since it is impossible to know the true motives of a stranger over the internet, anyone who makes these things can easily end up selling one that will wind up on Ebay in a month posing as the Real McCoy to separate a trusting collector from his spare $150. Some of the legit repro guys have been burned on this before, which is what prompted the rules changes. This is already precedent in the respectable repro community; I'm glad for this, hope for it stay that way, and hope for that to become established here as well.

And your argument for minor label variations is actually very weak. Most would-be scammers lack the technical skills to build their own repro carts. However, the skills and equipment needed to make counterfeit labels are much more common. Someone could buy this, make an almost-exact bootleg label, and then try to pass it off. Even if they didn't have that skill, they could intentionally destroy the parts of this label that aren't the same and sell it as a discounted "players' copy." Or, since replacement labels have started to become fashionable in some collectors' circles, a slick scammer could claim that this is an original copy with a new label (and they've... cough, cough, misplaced their security bit screwdriver so they can't show pics of the board). Or you could always just use really bad photos, and leave some poor collector to hope for the best and take a chance. I'm not even a real, talented scammer, and I've already given you four easy ways to scam with this cart.

We'll never be able to eradicate modern bootlegs like this one, but if we ever started to tolerate them as a community that would really open the floodgates. Counterfeiting has cast a serious pall over many collecting hobbies, and I don't want to see that happen to ours as well.
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80sFREAK

Quote from: yakuza on November 01, 2013, 08:37:29 am
Quote from: MasterDisk on November 01, 2013, 07:58:23 am
How 'bout you guys let yakuza sell his stuff without this giant argument going on?
I'm impressed it's already 2 pages long, many have posted (mods too) and no member or mod has done a thing.


lol....... hahaha  that's alright ...
So... how much? $30 with free shipping?
I don't buy, sell or trade at moment.
But my question is how hackers at that time were able to hack those games?(c)krzy

gr3yh47

QuoteThis potential for fraud vastly outweighs the entitlement of a penny-pinching collector, who wants original-ish carts of everything but isn't willing to pay the premiums.


lol entitlement, people like what they like, there you go being condescending again. If I wanna play the game on original hardware on a nice looking cart I should be able to do that.

QuoteMost would-be scammers lack the technical skills to build their own repro carts. However, the skills and equipment needed to make counterfeit labels are much more common. Someone could buy this, make an almost-exact bootleg label, and then try to pass it off.


scammers will scam. once again, people make poor/shady/illegal decisions with things, doesnt mean you should make those things off limits. the bottom line is this is all opinion and really doesnt give you the right to crap all over this guy's thread with your idea of repro morals. there's nothing wrong with what he is selling. If someone does something bad with it that's on them.

Reproduction: n. a copy of a work of art

TL;DR chill out dude you are not the repro police and your anger is misdirected.

nerdynebraskan

This is probably my last reply to you on this thread, gray.

Condescending again? The first time you accused me of that here, it was because I had misinterpreted an ambiguous comment of yours. Your claim then was baseless. This time, it's probably true.

There are no good reasons for this Earthbound bootleg to exist. The game already exists in decent quantities in our region, and there are dozens of them available for sale everyday on Ebay. Yes, the original copies have become expensive because of its cult status, but there are many cheap ways to enjoy this game. The flash cart route will even allow you to play it with an original SNES console and controller-in-hand. But this has all been said many times now, and it doesn't seem to matter to you. Why?

I think this does come down to entitlement. You seem to feel as if you're owed a "nice" Earthbound, and on the cheap and easy. (Though Earthbound may be a stand-in here for any number of rare and/or coveted games that few of us ever seem to have, and most of us seem to want.) If you really need this as a pillar of your collection, just go get a real one. It's not like you're going to view that bootleg on your shelf as anything more than a placeholder. Save up and buy one online, or do some hunting in the thrift store/yard sale scene, or do some reselling to raise the money. For most collectors (myself included), the hunt is as satisfying as the acquisition itself. And if it's not worth the work, maybe you don't really need it afterall.

For what it's worth, I technically have an Earthbound in my game room, but it's not even mine. My girlfriend is a huge fan of the series, and I organized a trade for it on her behalf. She spent $150 buying up some of my doubles that a collector in Canada was interested in, and I dealt with international shipping headaches to send him the stuff so he'd send her his Earthbound. Of course, this was all totally worth it. She adores the game, and I'll probably play through it one of these days as well.

A major part of the appeal in collecting originals of anything is the sense of history that comes with that. It's true of baseball cards, antiques, and now it's the same with vintage video games. The collectors' outrage toward counterfeits is not just about the risk of us getting scammed by the shady characters who like to prey on us. And it's bigger than our fears of depreciation, should a flood of fakes crash the market on our collection (as has happened in other hobbies). The thing that really burns many of us when it comes to counterfeiting collectibles is the sense of doubt that comes with a scene flooded with fakes: if we can't be sure of its age, we don't really get to revel in the history of it the way we wanted to. And that someone would rob us of that to make a few ill-gotten dollars is what is really terrible.

I think your definition of reproduction is too broad to be useful here. Whether it's your intention or not, you're lumping in prints of famous paintings with the bootleg video games in question, and that's not a valid comparison. Picasso only painted one "Guernica"; the print of it in my living room can in no way be confused with the original. Mine is ink printed on paper; paint on canvas is an entirely, obviously different thing. If not for the photographs and prints of "Guernica", the only way anyone in the world would be able to enjoy it is by travelling halfway across the world to see it in its museum. My "Guernica" print would be analogous to the online emulation community in gaming: a cheap imitation meant only to spread the brilliance of the piece far and wide to anyone who'd like to enjoy it. This bootleg Earthbound would be more akin to someone trying to create a paint-and-canvas copy of the famous painting, which is a tactic (not surprisingly) associated with art thieves burglarizing museums.

And in the end, your only argument left is to equivocate our positions by saying that we're both only offering opinions. (That, and attempting to rub in my lack of real authority on this matter with the "repro police" jab.) First of all, this is still a discussion forum. Trading opinions is the main reason these things exist. Secondly, some opinions are more valid than others. I've tried to back mine up with facts and careful analogies. (Though that also makes me long-winded, admittedly.) Your opinion is obviously different, but you're entitled to that. But obviously this is in an important issue, or we wouldn't have spent the last week arguing about it on this thread, would we?
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