Reproductions vs. Counterfeits/Bootlegs

[crade]

I don't like reproductions because they are illegal and yet not enforced..  It masks how broken our copyright system is.. If everyone were actually forced to follow copyright law as it is right now, it wouldn't last 5 seconds..  As it stands, they get away with horrible laws and are allowed to pick and choose when to enforce them so that only a few people get shafted and the masses don't see the problem.

[nerdynebraskan]

I hate these repro labels too, LET. In addition to being used to better conceal counterfeit copies like the game that started this thread, these can also be used to patch up damaged original labels. And the better these get, the harder they'll be to distinguish from originals (if they're not already there). I think there's a great disservice to the historical preservation aspects of this hobby in making things like this. At the point that someone like me who cares has to break out a microscope and look for the differences between a 20-year old NES label and a repro made last week, this really does make the hobby that much less fun. And there will absolutely be people buying copies with shredded labels, replacing them with these fakes, and then selling them as minty originals. (And it's going to potentially take more than a security bit screwdriver for anyone to tell the difference.)

[fcgamer]

I hate these repro labels too, LET. In addition to being used to better conceal counterfeit copies like the game that started this thread, these can also be used to patch up damaged original labels. And the better these get, the harder they'll be to distinguish from originals (if they're not already there). I think there's a great disservice to the historical preservation aspects of this hobby in making things like this. At the point that someone like me who cares has to break out a microscope and look for the differences between a 20-year old NES label and a repro made last week, this really does make the hobby that much less fun. And there will absolutely be people buying copies with shredded labels, replacing them with these fakes, and then selling them as minty originals. (And it's going to potentially take more than a security bit screwdriver for anyone to tell the difference.)

I feel the same way on these fake repro labels.  I am glad to see that these are for the NES though, and not the Famicom.  I hope that if enough of this stuff gets turned out on the NES side of things, eventually many of the "pro repro" folks will alter their views (like I had mine altered), and then perhaps larger actions will be taken to squash this stuff.  At the current state, too many people want these things, so those of us who care about the originals seem to be in the minority, or at least that is how it feels.

[L___E___T]

I think thats pretty spot on, the people that dislike them are the minority, so they continue on.  
People wouldn't be able to make them if the market wasn't there of course.

Did you guys see that story where the family were making art fakes and had global experts fooled?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1559132/Family-sells-fake-Egyptian-statue-for-400000.html
The time will come when you have to bust out a magnifying glass for sure.

Myself, I'm not super fussed as if a copy can be better than it's source, sometimes I like that.  There's a company in England that makes Ferrarri F40s, with upgraded parts and better spec than they originally had.
They're not genuine, but for anyone wanting to have an F40, they can consider having an improved version of the original, for much less money than an original.  Not genuine, but exceeding the goals of the original car.  Someone that wanted to put one in a museum would shudder at the thought, but go back 25 years and ask someone which version they'd prefer and they may well surprise you.

To me, that sums up the difference in viewpoint here - people that prioritise preservation really hate these repros as they cause great concern.  In contrast, people that just want to play great games and immerse themselves in that world like what repros can offer.


The more popular retro gaming becomes the bigger the repro scene will become.  Demand is already outstripping supply of much loved games.  Best thing you can do is be prepared as best you can.

[nerdynebraskan]

I'm not so sure that the disapproval of these knockoff labels is in the minority. Making counterfeit copies of games already released in your region is a serious taboo, for both repro sellers and major collectors. This kind of thing continues because there are people buying them, and the copyright violations are minor enough that it's difficult to involve law enforcement (if that's even something we wanted to do). Honestly, I'd doubt Taito cares enough about Little Samson today to do anything about a small vendor selling its art.

These labels are probably a bigger issue when it comes to upgrading existing copies. There is serious financial incentive here: a reseller could pick up a trashed Samson for a fraction of the going rate on a minty copy, add a knockoff label and possibly a shell-swap, and resell it as a minty copy for hundreds of dollars worth of profit.

And fcgamer, the only reason this is happening in the NES/SNES scene predominantly is that this is where most collectors are spending crazy amounts of money. Profit potential on Japanese versions of most of these games simply isn't that great. But this kind of fraud could potentially drive people out of the scene, or at least curb their spending. (This certainly gives me one less reason to ever drop $500 on a Little Samson, even though it's the only licensed NTSC NES game I still want.) Prices could stagnate, or fall.

Prices have risen in the FC collecting scene, and a lot of the buyers have been Americans importing cheaper versions of NES games. If the NES scene ever got so tainted as to inspire widespread doubts, game collectors could take refuge in Famicom collecting. If the prices rose enough, it would invite fraudsters to flood here next.

Counterfeiting has severely damaged many other hobbies, especially from the financial perspective. Old sports cards, for instance, are often sold at the same price as they did 30 years ago unless they've been "graded." (That is to say, many collectors in that scene are now only buying cards that have been put under a professional's microscope and verified to be original.) Reprints, both official and counterfeit, do have some nostalgic value: you can still admire the card's vintage photography, and the corny humor on the back. But there's not nearly the same kind of demand there, because it's not a real piece of history. And the ability to actually hold something from a different age is a major appeal to collectors of any variety.

LET is right that counterfeiting will only continue to grow as long as there's money to be made in a thriving hobby, but we should also realize that these bootlegs can eventually destroy the hobby as well. Whether we collect out of a sense of history, or because it's an investment that we can still play with, counterfeits inevitably cancel both of those motivations. I'm not claiming to have solutions to these problems, but I will start by shunning anyone flooding my hobby with counterfeit carts or labels. If we keep these taboo, at least we make it a little harder for these guys to sell them and pollute our pool of vintage games.

[L___E___T]

Square Enix own Taito, so Little Samson would be a Square Enix game then, cool

Famicom collecting is already prone to fraud I'd say.  I still don't think you can do anything about it though, it's already way worse than it was one year ago.  Just hurry to get what you want while you can.
I collect hardware mostly, so maybe that's why I'm less fussed.  You can't convincingly repro a Titler.  I started my collection as an investment, but it's become mroe of a fun hobby because I actually like playing the games.  

I like to enjoy these products as they were meant to be enjoyed.  That is the hobby (not building a museum) for most.
That's why you won't be able to prevent it - because people buying repros are peopel that want to play the games for what they are without buying an expensive original.

You may not like it, but it's going to get very hard for you if you don't find a way around it.

[bogniforus]

So did Yakuza actually deliver anything to you?  Cause he stole my money.  I know this is old but this guy needs to called out on his BS,

[L___E___T]

 



I don't remember this thread being about Yakuza - can you avoid scattershotting Yakuza complaints on all the threads.  If you have a complaint we'll look into it - but the solution is not to spam multiple threads.  Sometimes things can get lost in the post, sometimes neighbours hold on to a package, and sometimes there are just dodgy sellers - but we need to know more to help.

[shoggoth80]

I hope this isn't too bad of thread necro. This can be a touchy subject.
My own take on it: If a game wasn't released in my region, then I have no reservations over a reproduction cart. If a game never made it past prototype stage, I am ok with a reproduction cart (because I can see how someone would want to try it on real hardware, but not have the pockets to fund, or the luck to find the real thing). If a game needs translation, I am also ok with this. Homebrews, hacks that are basically different games etc. fall into the "ok" category for me too.

I don't have many reservations over pirate carts either. They are all over the place, and plenty of folks on here have them. Hurting the hobby? Some folks collect the pirate stuff, hardware, and games. It's kind of relative to your interests. Sometimes, if a game is stupid rare, or the prices gone insane, I can see how people would make this move. I've done it. Some of the unofficial games are ports, goofy originals...stuff you would not see otherwise.

Counterfeit is a different issue in itself. This is something that is not authentic, that is being passed off as such. I have one game that I would consider to be counterfeit. It's a reproduction of Airball by Tengen. A game that wasn't released. The person who made it/sold it went through some effort on it. It's in a plain black Tengen cart shell, with no label, and the label area is perfectly clean of any adhesive residue (as far as I can see anyway). At the time, and with available information, it was pretty convincing. But, it was also at a point where convincing fakes were juuuust starting to be seen on market. I bid accordingly, because I assumed that it wasn't authentic (always safer that way if unsure). When I got it, I cracked it open. Sure enough, on the inside, there is a sticker on the ROM chip that said "ROM dumped by xxxx 2000." It's been a while since I opened it, so I cannot remember the user name/email that was on the sticker. Nowhere in the auction did it say that it was a repro, and I do not even know if the seller was the creator. Seller name, and ROM dumper name didn't match, I remember that; that is easy enough to ensure though.

In the case of something like say "Earthbound Zero" where prototypes exist... the current run of repros would be hard to confuse as real I think. The couple of real ones I had seen were in grey NES shells, with plain white labels on them, with I want to say typed text stating what it is. Now, I have seen repros in that style where the seller clearly stated that it was a reproduction. I don't see much issue with this, because if a person wanted something as close to the proto itself for collection, or display... this would be the way to go. I have also seen repros of rather rare NES titles that had "Reproduction" clearly on their front label. Probably to prevent it being sold as authentic either through intentional misleading, or through incomplete information down the road.

As a whole though, I don't have much issue with it. Prices could stand to come down across the board on old game stuff, and some of the later life releases for the system are great, yet hard to come by. It shouldn't kill your wallet to play a 25+ year old game. However, I also a bit of an idealist, so I assume full disclosure... but understand not everyone is that honest.