Reproductions vs. Counterfeits/Bootlegs

[nerdynebraskan]

[NOTE: My original post here, and the replies that follow it were in response to a B/S/T thread with someone selling a bootleg Earthbound as a "rare repro." It has since been split into a new thread by an admin.]

Reproduction is probably too kind a word for a knockoff of a game that was already commercially released in this region. This is frankly just a bootleg. This is the crap that makes me pop open every expensive Nintendo game I buy with a security screwdriver to inspect the board for authenticity.

To be called a repro requires a little more merit that this deserves. It should be providing a gameplay experience that we wouldn't otherwise be able to enjoy. Unreleased prototypes, fan-translated Famicom RPGs, and hack sequels are worthy repros.

Real repros are also kind of an artistic expression. Even the more basic label designs are about combining advertising art for the game with the borders and color schemes commonly used by the likely publisher for the game to create a facsimile of what a US release would've looked like. Other repro makers get much more ambitious and use more elaborate fan art to create really dazzling labels.

I'm somewhat relieved that this label isn't exactly like an original Earthbound's, but it's also so extremely similar that it lacks creativity and it could easily be used to trick someone into thinking it's an original copy. I appreciate that you're not trying to pass it off as original, but there are also plenty of sleazy characters that would consider buying it off you and relisting it for $150 on Ebay as a legit copy.

[gr3yh47]

It is, in the most literal sense, a reproduction.

There's nothing wrong with that for people who want to play - on real hardware - a $200 game they'll never be able to afford

[Raverrevolution]

Not to be the devil's advocate here, but why such harshness towards bootleg selling if there is rampant Famicom Chinese bootleg selling everywhere?

It does however get me a little pissed too if someone sells an obvious bootleg but slaps the rare game's price tag on it.

[gr3yh47]

It does however get me a little pissed too if someone sells an obvious bootleg but slaps the rare game's price tag on it.

I agree, but that's not what's happening here

[fcgamer]

Not to be the devil's advocate here, but why such harshness towards bootleg selling if there is rampant Famicom Chinese bootleg selling everywhere?

It does however get me a little pissed too if someone sells an obvious bootleg but slaps the rare game's price tag on it.

Nothing wrong with selling bootlegs, if they're period bootlegs, i.e. from the original time frame in which the stuff was made.  If someone during the 1800s copied someone else, trust me, the knockoff brand is sure to still find quite a few buyers, because it is from the original time period.

But modern bootleg crap shit, it is just a cash grab, and I don't like it at all. 

[gr3yh47]

this game is almost 20 years old at this point.

[nerdynebraskan]

gr3y,

There is a very real possibility that whoever buys this will turn around and throw it somewhere like Ebay to make $150 or whatever the going rate is on a real one. There are all kinds of dirty tricks available to frauds to take a similar-looking one like this and make it indistinguishable from an original until they've already got a collector's money.

If a player just needs to play this game on an original console, flash carts are much cheaper than a pile of repros.

And this is not a 20-year old cart. This is probably a homemade job built in the last five years or so, because the US repro/bootleg scene is pretty young.

raver,

This is also different from Chinese Famiclone stuff, because those rarely look anything like an original copy. It's extremely easy to spot the differences, because they're not being made to look like an original. Unlike Famiclones, these kinds of jobs have a high probability of being used to dupe a collector into paying the original's premium.

fcgamer,

We have some differences of opinion on the repro scene in general, as I do see merit in certain kinds of them. Again, I think prototypes and translations are fair game. But bootlegging US releases like Earthbound is definitely a "cash grab", as you put it.

[gr3yh47]

And this is not a 20-year old cart. This is probably a homemade job built in the last five years or so, because the US repro/bootleg scene is pretty young.

I'm obviously talking about earthbound itself. way to talk down to me for no reason.

If a player just needs to play this game on an original console, flash carts are much cheaper than a pile of repros.

some people care about appearance, and this looks/is a lot cooler than a flash cart

There is a very real possibility that whoever buys this will turn around and throw it somewhere like Ebay to make $150 or whatever the going rate is on a real one. There are all kinds of dirty tricks available to frauds to take a similar-looking one like this and make it indistinguishable from an original until they've already got a collector's money.

you're hating on a basic repro, but your arguments are about fraudsters. yes anyone can defraud anyone through a number of methods. this is a perfectly OK repro that obviously isn't the original, what someone else does with it is on them.

[Pikkon]

If your going to make a custom label why not put the word repro somewhere on there.

[gr3yh47]

because that wouldn't look nice?

It's obviously not the original. I get it if you're talking about an exact same looking reproduction, but seriously, no one who would buy earthbound would think this was the real cart. all this soapboxing is absurd.

[80sFREAK]

Not selling on NA?
@
List on FW


P.S. @TS you forgot to add WOW!!! L@@K!!! to the title 

[nerdynebraskan]

First off, I like Pikkon's suggestion. I definitely prefer repro labels that say "reproduction" on them, or to at least include the maker's repro brand name/logo as part of the label art.

@80sFREAK,

Yes, I suspect that mods would close this thread if this was Nintendo Age. And if this was listed on Ebay, it could easily be flagged and pulled down there, too. I wonder whether that shouldn't happen here.

gr3y,

Calm down. I'm not condescending to you.

I genuinely thought you may have been suggesting the possibility that this was a '90s bootleg. As has been eluded to in this thread, and certainly discussed elsewhere, pirates have bootlegged these games since the time that they were new. As you quoted me, I even said previously that this is "probably" a more recent bootleg. I'm not aware of Earthbound being pirated in the '90s, but it really wouldn't surprise me if they did.

Otherwise, I don't know why you'd bother to note Earthbound's age. Yes, all SNES carts are 15-20 years old now. The NES and FC games are 20-30 now. What's your point?

And yes, I am focusing on the potential for fraud here. Thieves have sold bootlegs of high-value Nintendo carts as "original" for years. It's the reason all the legitimate, public repro makers have explicit policies against selling them. Repros themselves exist in a legal and ethical gray area (no pun intended). These tinkerers are selling shells only containing a piece of software that they didn't program. Personally, I don't have much sympathy for a company that never made an effort to actually sell us their program as a published game. So again I think things that went unpublished, entirely or at least in our region, are fair game for reproductions.

The legitimate repro scene's value to the retro gaming culture is in increasing the number of games available to us on original hardware, and doing so with some additional aesthetic value thanks to creative, carefully-made, custom labels. This Earthbound bootleg fails on both counts: it's already a game available to Americans, and this label is nothing new or interesting to look at. This is just a quick cash-grab to exploit someone desperate, or a possible investment for someone who will try to resell it as an original. In the latter case, the maker of this bootleg is at least an accessory to fraud. That's why the legit guys don't make these games: they don't want that on their consciences or on their professional reputations.

I'm sorry that such a popular game is so damned expensive. There's now dozens of NES and SNES games in that boat, thanks to the high interest in the hobby. I'm one of the crazy ones; I've spent thousands building up my collection because I have such a strong desire for original copies. But there are cheaper options for folks who are poorer and/or saner than me: we can emulate, we can import cheaper regional copies of many games, and we can invest in flash carts. The brokeness of some vintage gamers doesn't excuse the unethical actions that shady bootleggers resort to in order to scam the big spenders. If you really need to gaze upon a Starman while playing Earthbound on a flash cart, you could always put a Starman on your flash cart too.

[fcgamer]

fcgamer,

We have some differences of opinion on the repro scene in general, as I do see merit in certain kinds of them. Again, I think prototypes and translations are fair game. But bootlegging US releases like Earthbound is definitely a "cash grab", as you put it.

I definitely understand where you are coming from on this one, and to a degree I feel the same way.  I remember back when the repro market was still very young, I had paid someone to build be NES game cartridges containing Secret Ties, an excellent unreleased Nintendo game, and Moon Crystal, another great game that was a Japanese exclusive (well unless you count the early 90s bootlegs in 72 pin format, like the one I am currently selling on ebay).  So I can find merit in unreleased games, prototypes, and translations making their way into repros.  I feel the same way towards homebrew NES / Famicom games too, and would absolutely love to see more homebrew Famicom games made and released.  If that Battle Kid games were also released on Famicom format, officially, then I would grab them in a heartbeat, though in NES format I just don't have the interest.

With that said though, these past few years have been a big mess for repros, imo, and it has soured my liking for this stuff in general, though as I said above, I used to like this stuff, and there are some times when I would buy a repro...yeah, call me a hypocrite or whatever, hehe, I won't lose sleep over it

One of the major problems is that people who make these "reproduction" carts for the most part seem to find an unwillingness to properly state what they are, namely fan-made bootlegs of games.  If people were more willing to state this, even just somewhere on the label, then I would feel a lot better about the whole situation.  But a lot of people seem to prey on the unknowledgeable, and they end up selling these games for hundreds of dollars (repros of released games, translated fan repros, etc).  I guess this is good for the person making the money, but it isn't particularly honest, either.

Then there are the folks that sell "repros" of Japanese- exclusive games, just burned onto NES carts.  If the game was unreleased, or was text heavy or something, I could understand the need for a repro.  But many people will buy repros of a game like Don Doko Don, just because they don't want to be assed about finding a Famicom copy and a converter.  And I don't really think that is such a good thing.  On Nintendo Age, this sort of thing runs rampant; repro makers offer "new" games by taking random popular Famicom titles, burning them to carts, and releasing "limited edition" carts with numbers.  The whole thing seems quite ridiculous to me, and I have lost a lot of respect for Nintendo Age's database since it started including these "repro" titles and the "companies" that make them.  And then there is a large amount of hypocrisy going on among those people too, where it is "okay" to reproduce a game like Huge Insect from Sachen, since it is so hard to find, yet it is not okay to reproduce a game like Earthbound, since it is more common. 

One of the arguments I hear a lot is that "People can tell that it is a repro, since it doesn't look like the original one".  Well to be honest, I am finding new games and game variants on almost a monthly basis, and sometimes it can be hard enough to determine what was produced by the company officially as it is; throw in having to determine if the item was just an extremely rare one-off, or a fanmade thing, that just adds even more layers of nightmares to the mix.   

[80sFREAK]

So... how much is the fish? 

[L___E___T]

Haha, NintendoAge include repros in their database now?  That is wholly laughable, that's made my day  

Personally I think repros are fine, whatever the age.  There's no such things as an official repro or bootleg.  These bootlegs are being made in Shenzhen even now, so why is something made in Taiwan 10 years ago any more or less official than something made by a  guy in his shed today?  It all is a part of the interest for these games, it's part of the ecosystem and I myself don't mind it.

The corruption of taking a repro and selling it for big money, or even worse passing off as a legit copy is not cool however.

What isn't fair in my opinion, is withholding the benefit of the doubt for me people like me who have repros and don't whore them out with any of that corruption.  I have repros for my own enjoyment only.
I make my own labels for them and use real shells, but I don't care to put 'reproduction' on the cartridge or anything like that, I think it's ugly.  I do however make differences that you would see easily.

So yes, NA is a torrid mess of this stuff, but people want it, so why shouldn't they be able to enjoy a cartridge of something like Recca without paying through the teeth?  
Because some folks think they might be corrupt and make forgeries?  I don't see why i should change my honest behaviour to conform with that, what happened to innocent until guilty?

It seems to me the only people this tends to really upset are collectors, who spend loads on a game and are afraid of it being devalued.  Plus a few folks that don't do their research and overpay for something in a hurry.  If you buy a thousand dollar game that is at that price because the demand vs. supply situation, you can't complain when the supply changes.  These games shouldn't just be available to the wealthy.
Free markets are free markets, if you buy an expensive game, be prepared it won't always be expensive.  If Gimmick was easy to repro with all the sound channels, the price wouldn't be so high.

If Titlers weren't the only  RGB systems available with such a good PPU, the price wouldn'y be so high. 
Things change, prices change, but people will still want games and find ways to play what they want, it's not a hurtful thing on its own.


That said, flaunting a repro of a common game as 'rare' here was an invite for trouble.