An Discussion About The Ethics Of Not Identifying 1:1 Reproductions

[aodinets]

Making a Metal Force (without box and manual) for $33-ish is absolutely possible. I don't see your problem. I don't mind if the price was $40-$50 but taking 3x as much as the material price is worth, no thanks. It's just my opinion, nothing else. I'm free to state my opinion.
Good luck!

Before, you wrote $ 33 for everything, now $ 33 without boxing and manual.
And already $ 50 for everything.
Well, do it for $50 - I'll buy a pair. In other case, your opinion just a bullshit, nothing else. It's just my opinion, nothing personal. And good luck!

[fcgamer]

I never thought I'd see a $100 repro. Didn't realize how much work it is to actually create one of this. Still, I agree that reissue certainly does not equal repro. It's cool that you managed to do this, but you need to be more specific in the future.

Using word "reissue" instead of "reproduction" I try to highlight that this product is well-crafted and complete with all papers. It's not like repros other enthusiasts make: loose carts in used shells with stickers made of simple  self-adhesive paper, cutted out with scissors, you know...

When I say "we created the cartridge", it's obvious that it can't be official realese of Open corp., doesn't it? Also, I can assure that if you compare our cart with original one side by side, you will see a lot differences. We just tried to make it natural and similar to common Korean or Taiwanese cartridges

This gives me a total of $33 roughly calculated, where $99 doesn't really seem to be a fair price at all to me.
Good luck with your sales!

thank you!
I just can't figure out why are you care about the price so much... No one forcing you to buy it, huh. What I can say, is that $33 roughly the cost of housing only: papers, stickers, outer boxes, PCB shells... and not, it's not Mario donor  take a closer look! The carts are painted with metallic rose professional (super durable) glossy paint. You will not find anything like this anywhere else. We're really proud of it.

If you notice, during most of the conversation, the talk is about the paperwork, rather than the cart itself.  But this is also the point that you keep failing to address, in any way, shape, or form.

Even though it can still be a bit of a trouble at times, especially on the internet when relying solely on pictures and the words of the seller, it is much easier to determine if the game is a legit item or not, just open up the cartridge and examine the PCB inside.

With paperwork though, it's much harder, whether it be manuals or boxes or whatever.  Especially from a picture, and without having others of the same item in your hand with which to compare.  That's where much of the flack in this thread is coming from, at least by my point.

I am not some greedy bastard that doesn't want others to play the game, and feels that I am the only one entitled to enjoy it; on the other hand, I am also a collector, and your product is crossing the line of hobbyist project to share with other gamers to enjoy and that of a project that takes the piss on real versions of the game, which collectors own.  If it were Super Mario Bros. or something cheap, it would be one thing, but when we are talking about such an expensive / valuable game, such antics are definitely going to make you a few enemies in collecting circles.

As I mentioned in another post, maybe you could do some things to make the item you have here unique, maybe change some colors or some text or some design, to reach some sort of middle ground. 

[80sFREAK]

xlceMan, $33 is a cost of raw materials, and you forgot cost of prototyping.

aodinets, finally it's happened

fcgamer, i thought you are busy LOL

GKill, GO, GO, GO!!!

[xIceMan]

Prototyping was already considered.

Anyway, I'm tired of this kindergarten in this topic.
Peace out.

[fcgamer]

Butthurt? Collectors just don't like 1:1 fakes on high-end items. 

[Bramsworth]

I'm with fcgamer pretty much and surprised anyone that's been on these forums for years now would think this is OK for the collector's market. Make the item actually say on it it's a reproduction, it's that simple. Else you risk stuff like this getting out of people's collections somewhere down the line and no one knows how to tell it apart from the real thing until perhaps they get it and choose to open it up to look at the PCB.

The attempt at trying to sugar coat it with the word "reissue" is enough for me to dismiss this. Is "we" more than one person btw, or just a front? Maybe look at what Rose Colored Gaming does as reference for how to make repros that clearly are not the original.

[GKill]

Are there any clear guidelines how to make reproductions or custom cartridges? Really, what I can't figure out is why a couple of people decided that they can judge how that kind of stuff should look like and how to name it. Where is the border? Maybe I should put a big yellow stripe with black letters throughout the box saying: attention, repro! That's ridiculous

From my side, I am pretty sure that it is enough to state that this is not original old release. And the cartridge itself is not trying to mimic the original one, it's just looks similar. Even better in some aspects! There's absolutely no point to make a cartridge that looks completely different from original. That's silly

[fcgamer]

Are there any clear guidelines how to make reproductions or custom cartridges? Really, what I can't figure out is why a couple of people decided that they can judge how that kind of stuff should look like and how to name it. Where is the border? Maybe I should put a big yellow stripe with black letters throughout the box saying: attention, repro! That's ridiculous

From my side, I am pretty sure that it is enough to state that this is not original old release. And the cartridge itself is not trying to mimic the original one, it's just looks similar. Even better in some aspects! There's absolutely no point to make a cartridge that looks completely different from original. That's silly

When people collect originals, if people start making fake copies, especially of high end expensive rare items, those collectors are going to be upset. Its the same as making 1:1 retros of Nintendo world championship cartridges, Stadium events, etc.

I mean, you even make the game shell a similar color, and what about the manual and box? Are they really any easy way to distinguish from originals? 

I think that's all some of us here are asking for, just some easy way to differentiate real from fake, and I'm not sure what the big deal with asking for this is...it doesn't even need to be the word repro in yellow, why not just stamp Your Own company's mark in Russian in the corner or something? Everyone is happy, still looks great, maybe even better

[Ghegs]

Using word "reissue" instead of "reproduction" I try to highlight that this product is well-crafted and complete with all papers. It's not like repros other enthusiasts make: loose carts in used shells with stickers made of simple  self-adhesive paper, cutted out with scissors, you know...

Using "reissue" there is absolutely misleading. If you want to highlight that stuff, here's a better text to use:

"This product is well-crafted and complete with all papers."

From my side, I am pretty sure that it is enough to state that this is not original old release.

Where is that stated? Not in your original post and not in your eBay auction description that I can see.

There's absolutely no point to make a cartridge that looks completely different from original.

Of course there is, fcgamer has already explained this. If you're a collector, you probably want the original and you wouldn't be interested in this. If you're a gamer but still want something nice to look at on the shelf, then a repro with a different colored cart and/or a label with your logo somewhere in the corner is not a deal-breaker.

[GKill]

Where is that stated? Not in your original post and not in your eBay auction description that I can see.

Of course there is, fcgamer has already explained this. If you're a collector, you probably want the original and you wouldn't be interested in this. If you're a gamer but still want something nice to look at on the shelf, then a repro with a different colored cart and/or a label with your logo somewhere in the corner is not a deal-breaker.

oh, man, seriously? Can you read? In my original post: we - redone - cart - accurate - quality. See it? Still think this is description for original cart? Sure not! To be honest I don’t want to use word “repro” because in my mind it associates with cheap and poor stuff.

I can understand now why some users forcing me to make the cart look different and call it repro: just to make sure their original precious one will be obviously better It’s so selfish. You fear that no one will dream about your version and not be jealous to it
Hey, we can make a better copy, it’s 2018, we have technologies etc. The only question is time&price. There are 3 people involved in the project. That’s why I usually say “we”.

Small offtopic. Does someone remember sveral years ago appeared perfectly made editions of Zelda 2, Metroid etc. in complete conditions for Famicom? The price was $400 per cart. And there were buyers. I think it was a great idea and great implementation despite the price tag. I feel here we have similar case

[fcgamer]

Small offtopic. Does someone remember sveral years ago appeared perfectly made editions of Zelda 2, Metroid etc. in complete conditions for Famicom? The price was $400 per cart. And there were buyers. I think it was a great idea and great implementation despite the price tag. I feel here we have similar case

This is totally different topic.  These games were never officially released on Famicom cart format, and the ports that did exist had been lacking in some areas.  So no confusion for collectors, totally different things, like mangoes to jujubes. 

I hope you can make better analogies in the future   

[Ghegs]

oh, man, seriously? Can you read? In my original post: we - redone - cart - accurate - quality. See it? Still think this is description for original cart? Sure not! To be honest I don't want to use word "repro" because in my mind it associates with cheap and poor stuff.

Can you post your intent in a clear fashion? First your say it's a reissue, then in the next sentence you say "Everything was redone very accurate and with perfect quality!". That is just playing to the sales pitch that this is an official reissue of the game.

I can understand now why some users forcing me to make the cart look different and call it repro: just to make sure their original precious one will be obviously better It's so selfish. You fear that no one will dream about your version and not be jealous to it

I don't have a Metal Force. Make all the repros you want. Hell, I might've even bought one (though not at $90). But your unwillingness to even consider a small, yet clear mark, that this is a reproduction, combined with your choice of words in the advertising, heavily suggests that you're hoping prospective buyers will think it's an official release. That's selfish and deceitful. Your eBay auction was also advertising these are Korean imports. Do these particular repro carts originate from Korea? Here I thought you were located in Russia.

Does someone remember sveral years ago appeared perfectly made editions of Zelda 2, Metroid etc. in complete conditions for Famicom? The price was $400 per cart. And there were buyers. I think it was a great idea and great implementation despite the price tag. I feel here we have similar case

You mean games that were originally released on a disk for Famicom? And the repros are carts? Yeah, that's a very different case. Anybody can do five minutes of research and find the games were never officially released on cart. I have a NES repro of Miracle of Almana, complete with packaging, manual 'n all. Never once did I see it advertised as a reissue.

[aitsu124]

Small offtopic. Does someone remember sveral years ago appeared perfectly made editions of Zelda 2, Metroid etc. in complete conditions for Famicom?

Now this sounds interesting. How did the conversions compare to the FDS originals?

Also, GKill, I'm with everyone else on this, and I don't have the original. So it's not a matter of pride. I get why the word repro could be associated as something cheap, but just spelling it out as reproduction would help greatly with that. You could've easily done that.

The only thing I'll say is that I don't think you should have to change the label on the cart. Make the cart itself a completely different color, and there won't be any need to and buyers can still display the original label.

[fcgamer]

Yay for mods hi-jacking this thread with banter from a different thread...

Then again, it's nice to see how silent mods have been on the idea of making 1:1 copies of high-end games, I guess we can draw our own conclusions on what that means?  Maybe even some of the mods placed orders by now.

With that said, mods, please do not hi-jack the thread I made here to use as a dumping ground for discussion from a previous thread....

[fcgamer]

In an earlier message, MaarioS said the following:

"In a way I will absolutely agree with fcgamer here. Just say REPRODUCTION for crying out loud. This word is not censored here so you can say it here as much as you want to. As I mod carts myself, I can say it is a very clean work and not absurdly expensive even for 99$ if you sell it CIB, not to mention some games were never released and can only be bought as a repro or some carts are just unobtainable. What everyone complains about here is that you are very misleading and unspecific whether you are selling an "OLD ORIGINAL AUTHENTIC" cart as egay calls it or rather a repro cart. Whether you are serious about describing your products 100% correctly or not, this will reflect on your reputation"
Post Merge: February 19, 2018, 11:12:50 am
aitsu124 then said:  I never thought I'd see a $100 repro. Didn't realize how much work it is to actually create one of this. Still, I agree that reissue certainly does not equal repro. It's cool that you managed to do this, but you need to be more specific in the future.
Post Merge: February 19, 2018, 11:13:11 am
aarkay14 said:  I never knew of this game but I would say the cartridge finish is near perfect! It looks a perfectly fine Famicom cart.
Post Merge: February 19, 2018, 11:13:31 am
fcgamer said:  Here is this guy's ebay auctions too:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/METAL-FORCE-Famicom-game-Reissue-complete-Korean-import/323074141974

Nowhere does it say the game is a modern fake created by the seller himself... 
Post Merge: February 19, 2018, 11:13:49 am
xiceman said:  While the work on this reproduction is very well done, I would really also say it is a reproduction instead of using work arounds to not describe it as such.  Whether it's using a whole new PCB + CPLD and whatnot, it still wasn't made by Daou Infosys at all.

I've done a small calculation with average prices.
Code:
Donor SMB2 Cart (since it's purple) = $5.00
XC9572                                             = $12.00
2 EPROM                                          = $2.00
1 SRAM                                             = $0.60
Compoments                                     = $1.40
PCB Prototyping                                = $2.00
Manual + Box (no idea, guessing)     = $10.00

This gives me a total of $33 roughly calculated, where $99 doesn't really seem to be a fair price at all to me.

Good luck with your sales!
Post Merge: February 19, 2018, 11:14:08 am
aodients said:  Talk is talk =) Please, make the same metal force at $33, I'll buy 10 Red FC Cart
Post Merge: February 19, 2018, 11:14:30 am
flying phoenix said:  Unfortunately, "shady" sellers who try to pass repros for reissues (lol) are only half of the problem. The other half are buyers. See, two copies sold. I really want to blame sellers but seeing how there's a market for modern repros, buyers are just as guilty, if not more (because if nobody gave a poop, sellers wouldn't bother). Sad
Post Merge: February 19, 2018, 11:15:03 am
xiceman said:  Making a Metal Force (without box and manual) for $33-ish is absolutely possible. I don't see your problem. I don't mind if the price was $40-$50 but taking 3x as much as the material price is worth, no thanks. It's just my opinion, nothing else. I'm free to state my opinion. Smiley

Good luck!
Post Merge: February 19, 2018, 11:15:27 am
gkill tries to justify:  Quote from: aitsu124 on February 16, 2018, 06:06:51 PM
I never thought I'd see a $100 repro. Didn't realize how much work it is to actually create one of this. Still, I agree that reissue certainly does not equal repro. It's cool that you managed to do this, but you need to be more specific in the future.
Using word "reissue" instead of "reproduction" I try to highlight that this product is well-crafted and complete with all papers. It's not like repros other enthusiasts make: loose carts in used shells with stickers made of simple  self-adhesive paper, cutted out with scissors, you know...

When I say "we created the cartridge", it's obvious that it can't be official realese of Open corp., doesn't it? Also, I can assure that if you compare our cart with original one side by side, you will see a lot differences. We just tried to make it natural and similar to common Korean or Taiwanese cartridges Smiley

Quote from: xIceMan on February 17, 2018, 06:52:50 PM
This gives me a total of $33 roughly calculated, where $99 doesn't really seem to be a fair price at all to me.
Good luck with your sales!
thank you!
I just can't figure out why are you care about the price so much... No one forcing you to buy it, huh. What I can say, is that $33 roughly the cost of housing only: papers, stickers, outer boxes, PCB shells... and not, it's not Mario donor  Grin take a closer look! The carts are painted with metallic rose professional (super durable) glossy paint. You will not find anything like this anywhere else. We're really proud of it.
Post Merge: February 19, 2018, 11:18:47 am
fcgamer then says:  If you notice, during most of the conversation, the talk is about the paperwork, rather than the cart itself.  But this is also the point that you keep failing to address, in any way, shape, or form.

Even though it can still be a bit of a trouble at times, especially on the internet when relying solely on pictures and the words of the seller, it is much easier to determine if the game is a legit item or not, just open up the cartridge and examine the PCB inside.

With paperwork though, it's much harder, whether it be manuals or boxes or whatever.  Especially from a picture, and without having others of the same item in your hand with which to compare.  That's where much of the flack in this thread is coming from, at least by my point.

I am not some greedy bastard that doesn't want others to play the game, and feels that I am the only one entitled to enjoy it; on the other hand, I am also a collector, and your product is crossing the line of hobbyist project to share with other gamers to enjoy and that of a project that takes the piss on real versions of the game, which collectors own.  If it were Super Mario Bros. or something cheap, it would be one thing, but when we are talking about such an expensive / valuable game, such antics are definitely going to make you a few enemies in collecting circles.

As I mentioned in another post, maybe you could do some things to make the item you have here unique, maybe change some colors or some text or some design, to reach some sort of middle ground.

Post Merge: February 19, 2018, 11:20:25 am
fcgamer then says:  If you notice, during most of the conversation, the talk is about the paperwork, rather than the cart itself.  But this is also the point that you keep failing to address, in any way, shape, or form.

Even though it can still be a bit of a trouble at times, especially on the internet when relying solely on pictures and the words of the seller, it is much easier to determine if the game is a legit item or not, just open up the cartridge and examine the PCB inside.

With paperwork though, it's much harder, whether it be manuals or boxes or whatever.  Especially from a picture, and without having others of the same item in your hand with which to compare.  That's where much of the flack in this thread is coming from, at least by my point.

I am not some greedy bastard that doesn't want others to play the game, and feels that I am the only one entitled to enjoy it; on the other hand, I am also a collector, and your product is crossing the line of hobbyist project to share with other gamers to enjoy and that of a project that takes the piss on real versions of the game, which collectors own.  If it were Super Mario Bros. or something cheap, it would be one thing, but when we are talking about such an expensive / valuable game, such antics are definitely going to make you a few enemies in collecting circles.

As I mentioned in another post, maybe you could do some things to make the item you have here unique, maybe change some colors or some text or some design, to reach some sort of middle ground.

Post Merge: February 19, 2018, 11:20:55 am
80sfreaksays:  xlceMan, $33 is a cost of raw materials, and you forgot cost of prototyping.

aodinets, finally it's happened Smiley

fcgamer, i thought you are busy LOL

GKill, GO, GO, GO!!!
Post Merge: February 19, 2018, 11:21:13 am
xiceman says:  Prototyping was already considered.

Anyway, I'm tired of this kindergarten in this topic.
Peace out.
Post Merge: February 19, 2018, 11:21:45 am
fcgamer says:  Butthurt? Collectors just don't like 1:1 fakes on high-end items.